Respecting the beliefs of others

Sin;

illegal or immoral action, anger, covetousness, crime, damnation, debt, deficiency, demerit, disobedience, envy, error, evil, evil-doing, fault, gluttony, guilt, immorality, imperfection, iniquity, lust, misdeed, offense, peccability, peccadillo, peccancy, pride, shortcoming, sinfulness, sloth, tort, transgression, trespass, ungodliness, unrighteousness, veniality, vice, violation, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoing, wrongness

Call it what you want but throughout life everyone will be harmed by other people. All I was stating is that the problem isn't religion, it's people. We all commit acts from the list above that harm others and no amount of education, wealth, consciousness, etc in history has ever solved the problem. My greatest love and struggle with Christianity is that it calls me to put the needs of others above mine all the time. I strive to do that daily but also seem to fail daily at it. Jesus calls us to love people as he did. In other words dedicate your life to the needs of those around you even if it costs your life. "And by this everyone will know that you are my disciples." I'm not sure if anyone would be against this type of love and service?

Rotor, I respect your right to reject any and all forms of religion and believe. I in no way ever feel like I have the right to judge you or "throw you into a briar patch!" Any person that gives aid dependent on a persons response to the gospel is missing the point completely. Again this is just another distortion of the message that Jesus gave and I'm sorry again for what people do "In the Name of Christ." But with all the stains on Christianity, our Humanitarian Efforts throughout the world cannot be discounted.

Sin;

illegal or immoral action, anger, covetousness, crime, damnation, debt, deficiency, demerit, disobedience, envy, error, evil, evil-doing, fault, gluttony, guilt, immorality, imperfection, iniquity, lust, misdeed, offense, peccability, peccadillo, peccancy, pride, shortcoming, sinfulness, sloth, tort, transgression, trespass, ungodliness, unrighteousness, veniality, vice, violation, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoing, wrongness

Funny you don't even mention murder, stealing, domestic violence, child abuse, rape, etc.

I am particularly fond of a few of your "sins" and try to enjoy them as much as possible. debt (I have a mortgage), error (I make them all of the time, not perfect), fault (I have more than a few), imperfection (that's me), LUST (one of my favorites), sinfulness (sinfulness is a sin? sounds like a circular definition), ungodliness (that's me, no imaginary sky wizards for me), unrighteousness (another term steeped in religious dogma).

I believe in the Golden Rule, this predates the bible and is found in many ancient ethical traditions.

Just be good for goodness sake, not because you fear retribution from an imaginary sky wizard or expect to be rewarded in some delusional afterlife. An imaginary afterlife is the best con ever invented, it costs the con artist (priest) nothing and is not expected to be honored until after death. How many dead people can you prove have collected on this con?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Gen 1:27
If we were all created in god's image then why aren't we invisible too?

Sin;

illegal or immoral action, anger, covetousness, crime, damnation, debt, deficiency, demerit, disobedience, envy, error, evil, evil-doing, fault, gluttony, guilt, immorality, imperfection, iniquity, lust, misdeed, offense, peccability, peccadillo, peccancy, pride, shortcoming, sinfulness, sloth, tort, transgression, trespass, ungodliness, unrighteousness, veniality, vice, violation, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoing, wrongness

Funny you don't even mention murder, stealing, domestic violence, child abuse, rape, etc.

Definitely not an exhaustive list but just what I copied from Thesaurus.com. I think your missing the point of my statement. What I was saying was that all of us will be hurt from these things sometimes from our own actions and most of the time from others. Christianity speaks into these things and calls for a lifestyle that avoids hurting yourself or others by trying to avoid these things. When it's expected that non-believers adhere to these laws is when it crosses the line. I could sit down over coffee and explain how any of these "sins" or whatever you want to call them, could and can hurt you or someone else but I certainly don't expect you to follow the laws or guidance of a God you don't believe in. If lived as Christ intended, I believe that following Jesus is the path to showing the most love through your life. I do enjoy the conversation and I appreciate the civil nature of it Rotorhead. I would be happy to hang out and not talk religion anytime with you!

 

Christianity speaks into these things and calls for a lifestyle that avoids hurting yourself or others by trying to avoid these things. When it's expected that non-believers adhere to these laws is when it crosses the line. I could sit down over coffee and explain how any of these "sins" or whatever you want to call them, could and can hurt you or someone else but I certainly don't expect you to follow the laws or guidance of a God you don't believe in. If lived as Christ intended, I believe that following Jesus is the path to showing the most love through your life. I do enjoy the conversation and I appreciate the civil nature of it Rotorhead. I would be happy to hang out and not talk religion anytime with you!

I think that Christianity speaks to different people in different ways. For instance some of the big discussions going on in this country are driven by religion and it's desire to deny civil rights to members of our community. Why should a same sex couple be treated any differently legally from a opposite sex couple? Shouldn't they have the same visitation rights in a hospital or the same inheritance rights or the same rights to benefits as an opposite sex couple? How can Christians justify this kind of discrimination if they are as loving and good as you describe. How can good Christians deny birth control to women and also deny them access to an abortion if they desire it. These differences in our society are driven by the religious trying to force their values onto others. Why are the most religious states in the US also the states with the highest teen pregnancy rate?

Christians frequently try to force their taboos onto everyone in our society. Why does our money have "In God We Trust" on it when clearly that is not the case and never has been, at best it should say "In God Some Of Us Trust". Same with "Under God" in the pledge. These were just added during my lifetime and are not part of our American tradition. But it's OK, the Supreme Court says that we can't be made to say the Pledge of Allegiance, we just have to listen to everyone else say the butchered pledge.

The thing that irritates me the most is when you mention things like this and the Christian that you are talking to says "Those aren't true Christians, they don't truly follow Jesus' teachings". And then in the next sentence, "You know that 76% of the people in the US are Christians", as if he doesn't realize that includes the ones that he disavowed in the previous sentence, the ones that weren't TRUE Christians.

I wonder how can Christians believe in something so strongly without any proof? I mean, if I were to come to you and offer to sell you a bottle of wine for $500, and I explained to you that it would never be empty, whenever you want wine there will be wine. A great deal right? A never ending supply of wine for $500. Would you buy it from me? Probably not. Why? Because it seems too amazing and unreal. You have never seen or heard of anything like that existing. But if somebody comes to you and says that you should follow their rules and believe in their zombie savior and you will live forever. You swallow it hook line and sinker. Does it seem amazing and unreal to you? It does to me. Where is the proof? Any evidence at all that anyone has survived death, real death? But for this amazing assertion no proof is required because the bible says it's true. And where does the bible get it's authority? It's the word of god! And we know this because the bible tells us so.

I think you should buy my bottle of wine, it's a safer bet.

On this date in 1857, Clarence Darrow, later dubbed "Attorney for the Damned" and "the Great Defender," was born.

His most celebrated case was the Scopes Trial, defending teacher John Scopes in Dayton, Tenn., who was charged with the crime of teaching evolution in the public schools. Darrow's brilliant cross-examination of prosecuting attorney William Jennings Bryan lives on in legal history. During the trial, Darrow said: "I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure--that is all that agnosticism means."

http://ffrf.org/news/day#clarence-darrow

On one side of town, a small boy prays to god for rain so that his father's crop will not be lost. On the other side of town, a young lady prays to god for no rain because this is the week of her wedding.

One of those prayers will be answered - based entirely on the current meteorological conditions.

On one side of town, a small boy prays to god for rain so that his father's crop will not be lost. On the other side of town, a young lady prays to god for no rain because this is the week of her wedding.

One of those prayers will be answered - based entirely on the current meteorological conditions.

I've seen it up close. I was stuck in traffic between Pearson Gardens and Yacht Haven Grande. It was only raining on the YHG side, but not on the PG side. The rain stopped right on the yellow road division lines.
This was before the road construction.

I wasn't praying, but maybe someone else was 😀

If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.

On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. Belief in God is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a significant portion of the population to be delusional.

But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary?

Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we analyze God's responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools, what we find is that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In other words, when we statistically compare prayer to coincidence for explaining any situation, they are identical.

One of my favorite pages on this site.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/your-delusion.htm

RotorHead,
I would like to play devils advocate with your amputee response. I just finished a Christian Medevial Philosophy class.

One thing I learned from St. Augustine is God loves us so much that he gave us free will. Evil and sin is a by product of free will and is not caused by God. Nothing from God can be evil not even Satan. They made choices and picked their path. The question is if we want these evil painful things gone from this world would we be willing to give up free will to do so? The only way to successful stop evil is to remove free will from humans which is a very unloving thing to do.

I am not a religious person at all but I would like to think that if God was real he does not interfere because of free will.

We have to have free will- we have no choice!

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus

Lastly:

rotor, you are autistic!

All autistic kids are atheists and atheism is a form of autism

We have to have free will- we have no choice!

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he able, but not willing? My answer was yes stating that he loves us to much to take away free choice.

"The question is if we want these evil painful things gone from this world would we be willing to give up free will to do so?"

From an Athiest point of view we have to agree with St. Augustine; the only way to remove evil is to remove free will.

Sadly I do not think this argument can be won. Although I would like to see someone present a logical deductive argument supporting how God could take away evil and allow us t o have free will.

RotorHead,
I would like to play devils advocate with your amputee response. I just finished a Christian Medevial Philosophy class.

One thing I learned from St. Augustine is God loves us so much that he gave us free will. Evil and sin is a by product of free will and is not caused by God. Nothing from God can be evil not even Satan. They made choices and picked their path. The question is if we want these evil painful things gone from this world would we be willing to give up free will to do so? The only way to successful stop evil is to remove free will from humans which is a very unloving thing to do.

I am not a religious person at all but I would like to think that if God was real he does not interfere because of free will.

St Augustine lived in the 4th century. I love the way that believers are always re-interpreting the bible to fit their beliefs. I guess if you try you can find anything that you want in the bible. I love the way that believers are always thanking god if they survive a natural disaster but do not blame god for causing the natural disaster in the first place. I guess if you shut down all reasonable thought you can believe anything.

So you are telling me that the innocent people that were maimed in the Boston Marathon bombing were maimed because of their own free will. They were evil and brought it upon themselves. Including any children that were maimed. The thing that has converted many believers to non-believers is the realization that bad things happen to both good and bad people with equal frequency. Being "good" buys you nothing while you are on earth, you are only rewarded after you die. Supposedly.

God is only imaginary. There is no evidence to support the existence of a god or gods. If there is real evidence then produce it.

Sadly I do not think this argument can be won. Although I would like to see someone present a logical deductive argument supporting how God could take away evil and allow us t o have free will.

Before this argument would even be worthwhile you would have to prove that god even exists. There is no evidence to support this idea. Please prove that ANY of the miracles described in the bible even occurred.

Miraculously none of them left any evidence behind, only myths.

Your argument is like asking me to prove whether or not unicorns can fly. First you need to prove that unicorns even existed.

http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm

Another experiment that I would like for you to do. Prove that prayer has ANY effect on anything. Pick something that is unlikely to occur by coincidence and pray for it to occur. Can prayer make it happen?

If you don't like my healing an amputee suggestion then try to fly. Pray that you can fly, did it help. If you don't like my example then come up with one yourself. But you have to pick something that is not likely to occur naturally.

More questions for you to ponder along with your mythical god questions.

How fast can mermaids swim?

How far can pigs fly?

Who is more powerful, Zeus or Mithra?

Sadly I do not think this argument can be won. Although I would like to see someone present a logical deductive argument supporting how God could take away evil and allow us t o have free will.

Before this argument would even be worthwhile you would have to prove that god even exists. There is no evidence to support this idea. Please prove that ANY of the miracles described in the bible even occurred.

Miraculously none of them left any evidence behind, only myths.

Your argument is like asking me to prove whether or not unicorns can fly. First you need to prove that unicorns even existed.

http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm

Another experiment that I would like for you to do. Prove that prayer has ANY effect on anything. Pick something that is unlikely to occur by coincidence and pray for it to occur. Can prayer make it happen?

If you don't like my healing an amputee suggestion then try to fly. Pray that you can fly, did it help. If you don't like my example then come up with one yourself. But you have to pick something that is not likely to occur naturally.

The website link "whywontgodhealamputees" seems to be asking a direct question which I gave an answer. Your response ignores the question and the answer.

Just for fun I will quickly gvie an argument for proof of God. Decart tried to prove his own existence with 'I think therefore I am". Maybe, just believing in God makes God exist, even if that existence is only in my thoughts it still exists. Saying God does not exist is saying my thoughts do not exist, therefore I do not exist.
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Just for fun now answer my question. 😀 Lets not hate on St. Augustine for being an old guy.

As I said earlier I am not religious so asking me to prove prayers, miracles, Bible or God is like asking me to prove unicorns exist.

On Miracles:

[img= ]
image share

More questions for you to ponder along with your mythical god questions.

How fast can mermaids swim?

How far can pigs fly?

Who is more powerful, Zeus or Mithra?

I will ask my niece how fast her mermaids can swim.
As far as we can throw them.
If Mithra is the sexy one I pick her.

Perhaps with my Major being Psychology I see religion as something very powerful. When a person stops using Meth because God came to him in a vision and told him to change his life. Or a drug dealer and addict changes his life because he felt the holy spirit take over his body. Although AA use of God is controversial it does works. So many people would be in a lot worse place without God. A child over coming brain surgery who wants to give up on life because it is so painful turns to god for help.

Religion can be a beautiful great thing in someone's life.

I was just reading a research journal that showed that smiling during something you hate(Algebra) can change your attitude towards it. Thousands of studies show the power of thought. Even over coming illness your mental state is very important and could mean life or death. If you can use God to help yourself recover than I say awesome.

I can see this world as a far worse place without religion and spirituality.

The website link "whywontgodhealamputees" seems to be asking a direct question which I gave an answer. Your response ignores the question and the answer.

Just for fun I will quickly gvie an argument for proof of God. Decart tried to prove his own existence with 'I think therefore I am". Maybe, just believing in God makes God exist, even if that existence is only in my thoughts it still exists. Saying God does not exist is saying my thoughts do not exist, therefore I do not exist.
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Just for fun now answer my question. 😀 Lets not hate on St. Augustine for being an old guy.

As I said earlier I am not religious so asking me to prove prayers, miracles, Bible or God is like asking me to prove unicorns exist.

I answered your question in the only way that made sense to me. Since I don't believe that a god or gods exist then what good does it do to speculate about whether an imaginary being controls free will? As I said it's like asking whether or not unicorns can fly. Or how fast do mermaids swim.

You did not answer the question that "Why won't god heal amputees?" is asking. You simply speculated that because of free will god is not responsible for evil and therefore should not be expected to heal amputees. The distinction that the website was trying to draw is that god is often given credit for other miracles, everything from curing cancer to making blind people see. Why would god cure these problems but not heal amputees? Doesn't free will affect all of these ailments equally. The only difference is that healing an amputee could not be attributed to coincidence.

You also speculate that all evil is attributable to man by saying that the only way to remove evil is to take away free will. What about natural disasters? Man does not control the weather, when innocent people are killed by hurricanes or tsunamis how did free will cause this? Or do you not consider natural disasters to be evil or bad? Is god responsible for these deaths of innocents? Why do these natural disasters affect believers and non-believers alike?

As to you last question. Things that exist only in your thoughts are called IMAGINARY! Just because you can fly in your mind does not make it real, it is imaginary. And while having an active imagination might be good at times, it is also important to be able to separate the real from the imaginary. No matter how active or vivid your imagination might be, you can't live on imaginary food and water. If you don't believe me then try!

I can see this world as a far worse place without religion and spirituality.

Many would disagree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsz9XBhrYA

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu09WiVMBD8

Of course if there is a God or Gods he, she, or it is the creator of evil. All that needed to be done to avoid it was not giving free will. If God knows all that will happen before it happens, then he, she, or it knew that they were making evil possible.

Oh I love you so much I will let your father beat the sh!t out of you. But no worries it will make you stronger in the end. :S

I answered your question in the only way that made sense to me. Since I don't believe that a god or gods exist then what good does it do to speculate about whether an imaginary being controls free will? As I said it's like asking whether or not unicorns can fly. Or how fast do mermaids swim.

We speculate because we do not know the answers and even when we think we know the answers most those answers are only theory. I take it you did not like the movie the Matrix?

I like your natural disaster argument because it seems to remove free will. But is it possible for Earth to be evil or good? If I made a choice to live by a tree that falls and kills me; how can God interfere without removing free will?

Lets say for a second you were helping me prepare for a test in a hard philosophy class. If I tell the professor that god does not exist so what is the point to speculate on such a topic. He will give me an F in the class.

VT2VI,
That is closer to answering my question. But if God stopped someone from getting beat that would interfere with free will. So if we freely choose to do evil can we blame God for that choice when we had the option to do good? Example, I killed that person but it is gods fault because he gave me the choice to do evil, would not stand up in any court system. Even if that court system 100% believed in God it would not be a sound argument.

Is there a way for God to prevent evil without taking away free will? For the sake of argument please just assume God is real.

We speculate because we do not know the answers and even when we think we know the answers most those answers are only theory. I take it you did not like the movie the Matrix?

I like your natural disaster argument because it seems to remove free will. But is it possible for Earth to be evil or good? If I made a choice to live by a tree that falls and kills me; how can God interfere without removing free will?

Lets say for a second you were helping me prepare for a test in a hard philosophy class. If I tell the professor that god does not exist so what is the point to speculate on such a topic. He will give me an F in the class.

VT2VI,
That is closer to answering my question. But if God stopped someone from getting beat that would interfere with free will. So if we freely choose to do evil can we blame God for that choice when we had the option to do good? Example, I killed that person but it is gods fault because he gave me the choice to do evil, would not stand up in any court system. Even if that court system 100% believed in God it would not be a sound argument.

Is there a way for God to prevent evil without taking away free will? For the sake of argument please just assume God is real.

OK, Since we are just pretending. The way for god to prevent evil without taking away free will is to assign the Justice League of America and the Avengers to patrol the planet saving people and preventing disasters. If they aren't enough then create more super heroes. Create SuperGood with the super power to prevent evil. They could even prevent natural disasters since Superman could cancel out a hurricane by flying in a direction opposite to the rotation at high speed and dismantle it.

Or, we could cause a great flood and wipe out everyone. All evil would be destroyed. We could save only a few good people and start over. Surely that would work. God knows everything and is all powerful. Oh wait, he tried that and it failed. How could god have missed the fact that this solution would fail? Oh wait, because he is just imaginary! And there is no physical evidence to support the fact that a global flood ever occurred.

Is god real or imaginary? Simple question.

Repost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cYcsVPOok

He created the Angel Lucifer knowing full well he would turn into Satan. It doesnt make sense for God to create another imortal being knowing that he would turn against him now does it? A God like figure made by God to try and lure away man from God? God (used) to appear to man and speak to them. Why not now?