Miss America Pageant

well said rotor.... a vastly more complex system than anyone things... at the least.

French lawmakers are voting on a bill that would make it a criminal offense to organize beauty pageants involving young girls, effectively bringing to an end the baby beauty pageant phenomena.

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/france-says-its-time-for-kids-to-stop-being-put-on-display.html#ixzz2fWjeeaQL

Rotor, I agree the college example on an individual level is unfair. As a collective however the white person still wins. Although the name study has been done many times I know 20 20 news showed 17% greater chance to get your application downloaded if you have a white sounding name. That percent is high solely on a name.

Why are black children raised in single families? I think the policies in d.c. really screwed that up starting in the 1960s with how they delt with the welfare system. Added with the poor education system in inner cities, racial biased hiring and the list goes on. How do we fix this? Policies are the only way to fix this. Is it going to be perfect? Nope. Without laws I could see us enslaving each other.

We can void the basketball players and ceo's as affirmative action does not apply to the private sector. It would only apply to government, and government contracted companies. Which I dont even think the percent is that high. Sorry this tablet sucks with videos so cannot click until I get on a computer.

Loucypher, three times still trolling. Kinda get your name now lol. I have been using this tablet to type, so sorry for making a basic english mistake. Can you go for 4 times without adding anything useful?

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Just my opinion about miss Caucasian that was mentioned earlier. I support it as a first admendment right but dont you think it would be complelety asshole behavior? Think about hollywood, tv, magazines, or even the "doll test" on black little girls. It is clear who the winner is and light skin wins. Not to mention the millions every year spent on hair every year by black women to straighten their hair to look more like white women. So I can see how someone might feel it is racist to have miss caucasian. Just my opinion.

Lol loucypher chill dude. Get a cold beer relax, watch the waves. And try for post number 5.

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Just my opinion about miss Caucasian that was mentioned earlier. I support it as a first admendment right but dont you think it would be complelety asshole behavior? Think about hollywood, tv, magazines, or even the "doll test" on black little girls. It is clear who the winner is and light skin wins. Not to mention the millions every year spent on hair every year by black women to straighten their hair to look more like white women. So I can see how someone might feel it is racist to have miss caucasian. Just my opinion.

The things that you mention are personal preferences based on indoctrination. The fact that black little girls prefer white dolls and straight hair is something that could be changed by black families paying more attention to their children. Childhood is a very vulnerable time, children are very impressionable and authority figures can have a tremendous impact on their opinions and their adult lives. I think that many of these problems need to be addressed within the black community rather than through government discrimination against whites. Tell your children how beautiful they are. Tell them that they can accomplish anything that they set their minds to. Control the TV shows that your children watch but most of all provide good strong black role models for them to look up to.

I view this indoctrination of your children to think that the lighter the skin the more attractive they are as the same kind of indoctrination that says the more you believe in god the better a person you are. Our children are also indoctrinated to believe in an imaginary sky wizard, "god". There is no proof that god exists but if you continuously tell young impressionable children that he/she/it does exist then by the time they become adults they seldom even question it.

You control the future beliefs of your children. Tell them that they are good and beautiful and set a good example and they will follow. Abandon them to television and movies and music and even their schools and there is no telling what you will get. This does mean changing the local custom of having young men trying to get as many young girls pregnant as they can and being proud of it. It should be considered shameful to have children and not participate in their upbringing.

I consider it unacceptable to expect anyone to support a government which has official policies which systematically discriminates against them. Government policies have unintended consequences which cause more problems than they solve. Every government policy needs to have a clear goal and periodic tests to see if it is achieving its goals and to evaluate whether or not the goals could be achieved without using the force of government; Maybe through education in our elementary and middle schools.

I have had many personal experiences with AA/EEO as a hiring manager. You mentioned that this only affects government jobs. It also affects anyone wanting to do business with the government. Today that includes virtually all large corporations. I have been a manager at AT&T, Burroughs(Unisys), DEC(HP) and Microsoft as well as two start ups. They were all affected. In some cases to the detriment of the minority employee.

Yes we are indoctrated from the moment we are born. I wont disagree with most of what you said. We both have the same view of the wizard in the sky, but the psychology part of me will say it is normal behavior to believe in the wizard in the sky. I also believe welfare policies by the government have helped encourage single family homes. That does not mean all policies are bad. We have seen some great things to make society more equal in the last 55 years. Some policies have hidden negative consequences that need to be addressed and fixed.

Without a doubt education is the key to over coming this. I think the hair straightening thing runs deeper than telling our child she is naturally beautiful. Some do it just to get a job, or fit in society standards. An interesting study could be done with black women with natural hair vs black women who straighten their hair in finding employment. I think we both have a hypothesis of the outcome tho.

I did mention anyone who has a contract with the government. I will continue to support affirmitive action until scholarly peer reviewed studies show no correlation with race and hiring.

Yes we are indoctrated from the moment we are born. I wont disagree with most of what you said. We both have the same view of the wizard in the sky, but the psychology part of me will say it is normal behavior to believe in the wizard in the sky. I also believe welfare policies by the government have helped encourage single family homes. That does not mean all policies are bad. We have seen some great things to make society more equal in the last 55 years. Some policies have hidden negative consequences that need to be addressed and fixed.

I believe that the sky wizard mentality is prevalent because humans have a need to explain the causes of things around us. If you don't understand something what better explanation than GOD!
"If you're too stupid to understand science then try religion, no intelligence required!"

I disagree with any policy that implements government enforced discrimination. You can't fix a wrong by wronging others who were not responsible for the problem.

Without a doubt education is the key to over coming this. I think the hair straightening thing runs deeper than telling our child she is naturally beautiful. Some do it just to get a job, or fit in society standards. An interesting study could be done with black women with natural hair vs black women who straighten their hair in finding employment. I think we both have a hypothesis of the outcome tho.

It would be interested to study how white males with mullets, mohawks or long hair fair in finding employment vs those with more conventional haircuts. I have a feeling the results would be pretty much the same as straight vs natural.

As for affirmative action, we will have to agree to disagree.

What’s interesting is Miss America Nina Davuluri would never win pageants in South Asia because she’d be too dark to be considered beautiful & the same is true for all of those “Miss Indian American USA” pseudo-pageants held here, as well. No darkies allowed in winner’s circle.
http://www.firstpost.com/living/miss-america-nina-davuluri-too-indian-to-ever-be-miss-india-1111477.html

Last night, Nina Davuluri from Syracuse, NY, became the first Indian-American Miss America. She took a calculated risk -- pitching herself as the "diverse" contestant, and dancing to a Bollywood song in the talent segment even though contest insiders reportedly warned her the performance would be "too foreign."

The risk paid off. While the usual suspects took to Twitter to wail about Davuluri's win, most tweets were peppered in happy exclamation marks.

But there was an unfortunate irony to the win, noted mostly by Indian and Indian-American writers. Davuluri is dark-skinned. In India, where skin color is a national obsession, you likely wouldn't see someone of her complexion in a pageant, much less winning one.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/16/miss-america-nina-skin-color_n_3935348.html

Maybe we should just have worldwide discrimination against white people as part of international law. Why? Because historically they have been too successful? All races and peoples have historically conquered territory and enslaved others. Europeans were just better at it. They invented better weapons and technology which allowed expansion across oceans. They did things on a more massive scale. It's not like there were utopias all over the world with everyone living in peace and all of a sudden the evil white people came along and disrupted everything.

Who ended the worldwide slave trade? Did the slaves overthrow their masters or did the masters decide that slavery was wrong? In the US Civil war, most of the Union solders were white. The terrible white people ended slavery, so let's discriminate against them!

Yes i understand this is a universal issue. The caste system has been disbanded by the government yet is still alive in india. Nobody claimed any such utopia or whites or more evil than the next guy. I am very well firmilar with the civil war and way to complex to just jump in here. I would also say the civil rights moment would not have been possible with out white allies changing the laws. Again I would not say its in our nature to want to give up power. As the race with the most power isnt it our obligation to fix it?

Sure we are not the ones who enslaved blacks, or stole the natives land. But we are reaping the rewards from it today with having the most power. How does that not make us resposible if we are benefitting from it?

We can agree to disagree. 🙂

ikory

by what you said, every one whether they had been enslaved or were the slave masters, we have all benefited by slavery and thievery. so what would be your solution? perpetual reparations? continuous affirmative action? continual segregation by choice of blacks by blacks

what would you suggest

ikory

by what you said, every one whether they had been enslaved or were the slave masters, we have all benefited by slavery and thievery. so what would be your solution? perpetual reparations? continuous affirmative action? continual segregation by choice of blacks by blacks

what would you suggest

I will always support affirmative action for qualified men and women until scholarly peer reviewed studies can show no correlation with race and hiring. As rotor said Europeans made better weapons and just all around better at conquering everyone. Which nobody wants to hear it but white males are the top dog. So nobody has benefited as much as a white male has as a collective.That is not my opinion those are just what studies show. I believe this problem needs to be fixed with those with the power.

I mentioned before we had a guest at UVI with a PHD in psychology talk about this study. When given a test the researchers told the white and black students it was a “a laboratory problem-solving task" which the students scored about equal. However black students scored much lower than whites when they were told the same test was a intelligence test.

What does this study show about stereotypes, or profiling? I am sure if we ask any of those students they would deny this to be true. Ask anyone if they are biased on hiring just on someones name they will deny it as well.

My solution is to fix this with education. We need to make everyone aware of these studies so they can avoid them in real life. I am not some crazy person who wants to tell white people how evil they are. Or they should feel guilty they have the most power. I prefer not to have anyone say we need a "miss Caucasian". I want to be part of the solution with this. My wife has a BS degree in sociology and I am graduating with my BS degree in psychology this spring.

your solutions would provoke further provoke division and the focus on difference.

Just because something is popular, say, Alcohol, and something else is unpopular, say, Cannabis doesn't mean you need to force one over the other even though one is drastically better over all.

I agree that education is the key, but education already focuses heavily on races other-than-white. in fact there are whole "months" dedicated to them; which again, just forces more focus on difference.

I think your opinion is slightly tainted by victimhood, you are not a victim; this situation does not need to be solved from the perspective of a victim.

"divide and concur" is at work here, try not to further it.

I will always support affirmative action for qualified men and women until scholarly peer reviewed studies can show no correlation with race and hiring. As rotor said Europeans made better weapons and just all around better at conquering everyone. Which nobody wants to hear it but white males are the top dog. So nobody has benefited as much as a white male has as a collective.That is not my opinion those are just what studies show. I believe this problem needs to be fixed with those with the power.

I don't understand this. "until scholarly peer reviewed studies can show no correlation with race and hiring". What if they are simply hiring the most qualified candidates? It's all about education right? Why should the government or a corporation be forced to hire a less qualified candidate? Why should a university be required to bypass entrance scores? Are we setting out country up to fail by rejecting the more qualified in favor of the less qualified?

From a scholarly peer reviewed study.
"Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the US have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower—and that of the Asian American population being higher—than that of the White American population."
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Race_and_intelligence.html

Discrimination is discrimination! We are all different. The government cannot or rather should not be expected to FORCE equal outcome only make equal opportunity available. And just because equal opportunity is available is no guarantee that everyone will take advantage of it. I am not sure that there will ever be equal outcome among the races, does that mean that this blatant discrimination will go on forever?

Rather than let one group excel as it will or another group fail as it will we are trying to enforce mediocrity.

No one seems to have a problem with the fact that 75% of NBA players are black, or that 67% of NFL players are black or that virtually all gold medalists in long distance running are from east Africa. Are these numbers a result of discrimination and need to be fixed?

Maybe the poor white players need some affirmative action. Maybe the white runners in the long distance races shouldn't have to run as far. Isn't that what affirmative action is all about?

Rotor an liquid,

So I mentioned the name study before. I saw the same study with 5,000 resumes sent to over 1300 employees. The results were for every 10 resumes a white person sent back he would get a call back, compared to a black person who has to send out 15 resumes to get a call back. That is a 50% difference in a call back is HUGE. 20 20 did the downloads with female names and 17% more likely to download a female white sounding name. I would not call this the victim card; this is basic probability that has nothing to do with the white person being more qualified. This is discrimination. We cannot say NFL teams, or basketball teams pass up white players 50% of the time because of their name alone can we?

That same study sadly showed Federal contractors who use affirmative action do not discriminate less. So this would be your best argument against affirmative action. However it still requires employers to hire a certain percent of qualified minorities. So my argument would be that this is better than doing nothing.

What would be your solutions correcting this 50% call back rate? If we have basic discrimination law and remove affirmative action we can safely assume minority unemployment will greatly increase so please do not suggest absurdity.

Rotor I am not sure what your link about IQ testing is suppose to relate too. If that was to my IQ example those are 100% different things. My study could be applied to any stereotype and how they affect people. Asians are bad drivers, African Americans are stupid, and women have no logic. I have seen many studies with the power of stereotyping, why I really hate profiling because we can make it true with words. Why do African Americans score worse when they were told it was an IQ,compared to if they were told it was a different type of test? It is because even if we deny stereotypes they still affect us.

Why I keep mentioning this study, and the doll study is it is not their parents or the black community telling them this, it is society as a whole they are learning this from. How as a society can we correct the doll test and the stereotype test?

What would be your solutions correcting this 50% call back rate? If we have basic discrimination law and remove affirmative action we can safely assume minority unemployment will greatly increase so please do not suggest absurdity.

well first the "call back" rate as you describe it falls solidly under the logical fallacy umbrella of "correlation does not imply causation".

it is not automatically discrimination that Trevon didn't get a call back and Bob did; it's probably a very simple cause of that which is familiar (bob is more familiar than Trevon) is more comfortable, human nature, again; not discrimination at all.

African Americans are stupid, How as a society can we correct the doll test and the stereotype test?

in my 33 years of life I have never heard this stereotype... must be a smaller one?

the others I have & quite frankly think they hold very true for the most part (which is exactly what profiling is, guessing the future based on past example... it is a very important part of life and something everyone does all the time with good reason).

I think this is again, a victim point of view. How about empowering people to see past any stereotypes that are applied to them so they are not affected; self confidence does wonders.

I grew up in the pacific northwest & was not exposed to racism at all, I was exposed to human nature, the Oregon population hated the Californians that would move up and were prejudiced against them (for the most part with valid reason)... just human nature.