VI included in Health Care Bill

Well I hate to break out my tired old argument about why I am against the level of government intervention in our lives that STXBob clearly advocates but I will 🙂

STXBob, here is why we fundamentally disagree. I believe in non-violence. Everything the government does it does through violence and the threat of violence. It forces us to pay taxes to pay for all of the ideas of this generation and unfortunately through the debt, of the previous generations. If you don't belive me try not paying them and see where you end up (in a cage). To provide healtcare to somone who can't afford it the government has to violently take away from someone who produced enough to afford their healthcare and the healthcare of those who can't. I want to live in a peaceful society and I don't think that is possible under socialism.

Do I think there should be charity? Absolutely, voluntary charity. But no man should point a gun at another man and force him to provide for others which is what government does. Socialism adovocates such violence, and even when its done for a noble cause, violence is still wrong according to my moral code. It also tends to turn into Stalinism and Nazism if left unchecked over time.

I firmly beleive in a government that has one goal, to reduce violence as much as possible. Defending the rights of people to not be violently assaulted for their speech, or for their property are the legitimate tasks of our govenment as enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. This was a truly revolutionary concept that was, for the first time, implemented here in the United States. But in the last 80 years we went from a government that was there to protect the passive rights of many to one that violently took from one man to give to another. Healthcare is just the latest symptom of the ever increasing violence that us peaceful men must live with under the very institution that is supposed to be protecting our peacefullness.

I'll get off my soap box and I know some who probably agreed with some of my previous arguments (Lizard) on this thread will think I'm a bit crazy but I've put a good deal of thought into the morality of government over the years and I just can't get past the fact that no matter how good a government program may be it is still backed by a gun. I just cannot reconcile this with the peaceful and civilized society I wish to live in.

Sean

Right on Sean!(tu)

health care reform is not giving free health care to most americans, it's affordable health care. those who cannot afford it already get it for free.

There is no such thing as free, you have to first take it from somebody else in order to "give" it away!

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”

~~~ The late Dr. Adrian Rogers , 1931 to 2005 ~~~

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich, you cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong, you cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down, you cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence." (Abraham Lincoln)

We have to define a decent standard of living ? What about the Poor folks in Africa who still live in mud huts? This country already has a better standard of living than any other country in the world and it is still not good enough for some people. Class,separation has and always will exist.

If you want me to define a decent standard of living, I’ll take a crack at it: free education, good healthcare without fear of bankruptcy, public roads, rule of law, freedom of speech and all that other democratic stuff, credit, electricity, refrigerators and chocolate.

The US has the 7th highest standard of living in the world, although with the introduction of good healthcare for all, maybe we’ll move up. Those darned socialist countries are all ahead of us. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living: “A Standard of Living Index has been published annually since 1980 by International Living. As at 31 December 2009 this showed 1 France, 2 Australia, 3 Switzerland, 4 Germany, 5 New Zealand, 6 Luxembourg, 7 USA, 8 Belgium, 9 Canada, 10 Italy, 25 UK, 47 Israel, 194 Somalia.”

According to Paul Krugman, class and separation largely disappeared from the 1930s to the 1980s with income equality. Before and after that time, we had/have lots of inequality. People think they're doing OK if they're on par with the rest of the country.

STX bob...Are you serious??? Was the wallstreet bailout part of a social program ?

No, that was Bush and Obama handing the rich more of the country’s non-existent money after a post-deregulation clusterfudge.

Mmm... fudge.

Words of Wisdom. I hope we are listening. What this country needs to decide is, What is a right?" The rest we need to work for. If every family "worked" and took care of their own, we would have no problem. I came from a time where most families had a grandma or grandpa living in an extra room that was built on. What was a nursing home? A place where people went who had no family. Everyone went to church and gave their 10%. Churches had their charities. Not about religion. About community. Neighbors helped neighbors. No one called the city if your grass wasn't cut. They walked to your door and asked if you need help and cut your grass for you. We sent all our kids to college to be brainwashed. We wanted better for them. They are out of school now and cannot get jobs and are way to good to cut grass, deliver the paper, be trash collectors, pump gas, clean houses, take in laundry, babysit, wait tables, fix cars, paint houses ect. Our kids are way to educated for that. So everyone pays illegal aliens to do that sort of work and our kids live in our houses sitting on their a sses complaining that they can't find a job. My kids don't do that. They know better. If they tell me they can't find a job, I give them one. Pick up the dog s hit in the yard. Go house to house and offer to wash cars. They are so embarrassed by me. I don't care. My job is to raise you to be a productive human beings. If you don't have health insurance get a second job and pay the $140.00 a month for basic care from Blue Cross. It's there people. Don't let anyone fool you. Don't have sex unless you are prepared to support a child. Girls lie about birth control so they can get someone to take care of them. Boys want the girls to cook and comfort like mommy. The last thing I tell them is, "hey, you made this bed. Now let's see about smoothing those sheets. I don't care if my kids hate me. At least they can and will survive because they don't want to disappoint me or p iss me off.

dougtamjj: Holy c rap, that's some serious parenting! My hat's off to you.

Hey STXBOB.
That's not serious parenting, that's parenting! Good Parents are one of are unsung hero's today!

dougtamjj.... WELL SAID !!!!!! Now folks ....THAT ..is an AMERI..CAN... (tu)

Dougtamjj.My Hats off to you as well. It can't easy today,I have no children. But you preach the values that made us great to begin with. Times change but values don't have to.(tu)(tu)

the middle class and working poor i am sure have their pride and don't want to take anything from anyone. i'm in there somewhere, but perhaps i get ahead of myself saying that. i only know what i know. folks only know what they know.

access to affordable, reliable health care. it's a privilege, just as an education is, in my opinion. but one cannot enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless one is well. what health care reform is about is keeping insurance companies from using a miscarriage to scream "pre-existing condition" when a woman wants to be covered for prenatal, childbirth or reproductive health care. it's about making sure that someone in the middle of cancer treatment does not die because a bureaucrat decides she will no longer be able to stay on her treatment and cuts her coverage. those who are paying good money for expensive programs are protected in these instances. employees who get insurance on the job will have their employer's contribution taxed as though it were income, once this thing rolls out.

one of the costs of living within a society where we are safe and have access to many conveniences unknown to most in the world is that we pay taxes to support the infrastructure. we also pay taxes that pay for the wonderful health care plans of our elected officials. would you drop them from coverage in the interest of no one getting anything for free? that's socialism, and most of us get no benefit from the expenditure of these tax dollars except the continued health of our elected officials. dick cheney, if he were not where he is, might not be alive today.

no one is taking anything from anyone that's not already been given away in welfare, medicaid and medicare. those horses are out of the barn. this is apples to apples talking time. health care reform is about making health care more affordable to those who are not indigent, and who do want to pay their way, and who do want their insurance to be there when they need it.

to paraphrase james brown, i don't want you to give me anything. open the door, and i'll get it myself.

talk apples to apples.

A Davis,
The bonafide residents of the USVI do not pay one penny in Taxes for Federal Elected Officials Health Care (That would be Dick Cheney), The Majority of People on Medicare have paid over Their Lifetime and Pay Premiums for part B and Part D. Medicaid the Islands don't have , The ER at the Hospital is used for primary care at no cost. Maybe you can cite the number of non insured residents who use this Free Medical Plan. Some rise out of the Welfare Program a lot don't. If your 5 months pregnant is not the time to shop for Medical insurance. Health reform was needed by all not just the poor middle class. It could have been reformed without this new plan. One should be working for Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. When all is said and done Tax payers will be paying for this program. So James Brown doesn't apply.

whenever we have had to go to the emergency room, we have had to pay 140 up front. we prefer to use our dr. but some things even he cant do.

speee1dy,
You go out to eat a lot according to your posts, and you don't have Health insurance?

we go out to eat about once a month, i dont consider that alot. sometimes twice a month. still the amount we spend eating out is no where near the 500-600 a month health insurance would cost for just one of us. when we do go out we usually split an entree. we might spend 75 a month if that when we go out. besides, i have never said I wanted free health care. i just want it affordable for everyone.

Lizard, this is a debate not a personal attack forum.

lizard, i mislead you there. 3 time this month and 1 time last month.

I've mentioned here a few times the risk of personal bankruptcy with our current healthcare system, but I'll describe it in more detail in case anybody is not aware of how it works:

If you have no health insurance, or you are under-insured, and you are treated for a major (or perhaps not so major) injury or illness, then you will get a very large bill, perhaps 5 or 6 figures, and you will often be charged much more than if you had insurance, because insurance companies limit what they will pay to providers, whereas individuals have little say in what they get charged, so the providers will gouge you. If you can’t pay, they will go after your assets.

If you are poor, then you couldn’t afford health insurance, and you have no assets to go after, so nothing to lose.
If you are rich, you can pay, although you probably had health insurance in the first place.
If you are middle class, then they will go after your assets. If your assets are less than the bill, then you will be in debt and probably you will declare bankruptcy. By the way, certain assets, like retirement accounts, are usually protected from creditors.

So my point is, if you have assets that you want to protect, you should have health insurance.

I say this partly as financial advice, and partly to say that if you cannot get health insurance now, then I hope Obamacare works as planned, and you will get it later, and your family will no longer be at risk for medically-induced bankruptcy.

Speee1dy,
Sorry if you had taken the question as a personal attack. My observation from your prior posts you go out to eat a lot and have no Health care insurance. I didn't slam you or attack you. My opinion is that we all need Food,Shelter,Clothing and Health care Insurance, just to survive today.

When you consider that the STX ER didn't renew many of the RN contracts recently and has let things get so bad that most of the providers are leaving or planning to leave you might consider this: This is what the medical community thinks about this. This is from Medscape blogs.

Healthcare Reform and Emergency Medicine
Mark Reiter, MD, Emergency Medicine, 09:34AM Mar 23, 2010

Emergency Physician, Bethlehem, PA

Barring a reversal in the legislature or the courts, it appears that Obama's healthcare reform bill will become a reality. Judging by the Massachusetts experience, over the next few years as the bill's provisions take place, I expect there will a significant increase in healthcare utlization, as an expected 30+ million people are now covered. However, virtually all of the newly insured people will be added to the Medicaid rolls, and a significantly portion of primary care physicians feel they cannot afford to see Medicaid patients. In addition, our pool of primary care physicians continues to shrink due to subpar reimbursements, with many more primary care physicians slated to retire if the planned Medicare cuts actually take effect.

In Massachusetts, after near-universal healthcare coverage became a reality, demand for primary care significantly outstripped supply. Newly insured patients had their insurance, but no doctor to see. As a result, they visited the emergency department. Massachusetts ED volumes have surged, leading to significant worsening of ED crowding and its resultant concerns.

Emergency physicians are best trained and utilized to care for patients with acute emergencies. Over the coming years, emergency physicians should expect to be delivering more and more primary care, in increasingly overcrowded EDs. It's not an ideal situation - practicing medicine outside your primary training in a very difficult environment. Well, at least the healthcare bill enacts comprehensive tort reform so that physicians can worry about doing best for their patients instead of practicing defensive medicine --- oh, my mistake, that got left out.

Oh, snap! My utopia is crumbling.

"to paraphrase james brown, i don't want you to give me anything. open the door, and i'll get it myself."

I.m OK with that as long as I can say Bank,open the vault, i don't want you to give me anything. open the door, and i'll get it myself.

I'm usually Obama bashing, but I agree with him today,(I know, but I DO!) he is to open offshore oil drilling(we can all see the run up in oil, get ready for higher gas & WAPA prices).
We should use our own oil, before it becomes outdated & useless.

A Davis,
The bonafide residents of the USVI do not pay one penny in Taxes for Federal Elected Officials Health Care (That would be Dick Cheney), The Majority of People on Medicare have paid over Their Lifetime and Pay Premiums for part B and Part D. Medicaid the Islands don't have , The ER at the Hospital is used for primary care at no cost. Maybe you can cite the number of non insured residents who use this Free Medical Plan. Some rise out of the Welfare Program a lot don't. If your 5 months pregnant is not the time to shop for Medical insurance. Health reform was needed by all not just the poor middle class. It could have been reformed without this new plan. One should be working for Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. When all is said and done Tax payers will be paying for this program. So James Brown doesn't apply.

i said elected officials though, and virgin islanders' taxes pay for the health care of theirs. i did use dick cheney as an example of someone who has an ongoing heart problem that would be seen as a pre-existing condition... this happens to be public knowledge.

you are characterizing entire groups of people based on the actions of a few, but in fact, when someone uses the er as primary care facility, we all collectively pay, with higher premiums, fewer services at the hospitals because they cannot use the $ productively due to shortfall, and possibly higher taxes to make up for lack of contribution. why do people do this? ask. you may find that many don't have health insurance.

and to say people wait until they are 5 months pregnant to seek insurance does not address my original example.

let's talk apples to apples. i know folks are tired of people who live on the dole, but we are talking about people who need and want to pay for affordable health care.

A.Davis,
Nice recovery attempt, I'M not buying! Your apples to grapes.

A.Davis,
Nice recovery attempt, I'M not buying! Your apples to grapes.

i've got nothing to sell. but i appreciate your reading the post.

lizard, and maybe now i will be able to afford health insurance. no plan is perfect.
antiqueone, glad for the info you provided.
DUN, ill join you at the bank