VI included in Health Care Bill

Lizard: OK, I was wrong. Change congress people from "usually a lawyer" to "often a lawyer." Thank you for looking up the facts. I wish more people would do that. Many of the complaints I read here have no supporting facts or explanations.

Americans look for the best people to represent us. The result is a congress that is well-educated, well-spoken, with good leaders who think long and hard about their jobs (sometimes for their own benefit, but usually for the people's). You wouldn't want an average American to represent us. I'm speaking generally, and I know there are some exceptions, like bad representatives, or smart Americans who aren't in congress.

Dougtamjj: Americans didn't settle. We elected them, and they passed and signed it. Some polls show that more people like the bill, some show less. I think more will like it in time. We're the greatest nation, and this will make us greater. The old system was an embarrassment. You asked, "Why did our lawmakers exempt themselves from this healthcare plan?" I've read this assertion a few times, but I've never seen a citation, or explanation. Somebody please provide one.

STXBob..... Yes I would like an average American to represent me....Please...The elite attitude is what is killing this country... Give me someone who like our forefathers were just regular common folk who decided enough was enough..... Give me a guy who for the betterment of this country will protect our liberty,freedom,borders,trade etc... I' d love to see more common sense type people standing on Capitol Hill. yes they won't be....... polished .....,smooth talking.....,back slapping....lying sob's but they'd hopefully stand on the great Constitution we were given.. I'd love to see a plumbers crack,.....a carpenters apron, a welders hood... a chefs jacket ....and even some dirty diapers ....in the halls of Congress...Some men know how to be men ,others lately have chosen to be politicians... sorry ladies I forgot to mention ..The dirty diapers are for the real mom's and kids that also would take part in keeping the good ole boys in line...The American's I know would back a leader like that ,and have no problem fighting to keep him ...and I do mean fighting...

STXBob, Earlier in the thread you summarized Paul Krugman's presentation and one of the points you mentioned was:

- If healthcare reform passes, it will be very hard to take away, and will probably improve with time. That's why Republicans are trying so hard to prevent it.

Do you have any insight as to the definition of "improve with time?" I may be wrong but I read it as "fully socialized medicine." While I'm not against the goals of the Obamacare package it is the method of acheiving those goals that I am frankly scared of. I am scared because history is repeating itself. A government program is introduced at a small scale and eventually grows into a monster. The monster I forsee is full socialization of medicine. Ms. Thatcher's quote from above in the thread quite succinctly illustrates my personal problems with that.

I suspect STXBob that you are in favor of a full socialization of medicine. I suspect that you were in favor of the Obamacare package because you believe that this is the first step towards that goal. Hopefully I am wrong about this and please set me straight if I am. But I think much of the resistance to this bill is not to where it brings us now but instead to what it will likely lead to. I think the majority of American's are vehemently opposed to socialism and feel that this bill is the first step to eventually ramming it down their throats.

Sean

Stiphy,
The real scary thing about the Health Care Reform, is that you and I are starting to think the same way:-o

Stiphy,
The real scary thing about the Health Care Reform, is that you and I are starting to think the same way:-o

Ha, now that is scary....it must be a bad thing 🙂

Sean

I think everyone has fallen for the misdirection given by media/ government sources. Why are health premiums high and going up? The profit margins of the insurance companies seem to be modest, below many other industries. The insurance companies pay for the tests ordered by doctors. The doctors, on the other hand practice medicine while looking over their shoulder to see what the lawyers are doing. The only ones getting rich are the LAWYERS. That's were your premiums are going.
Who are the members of Congress? LAWYERS ! Is there any control on law suites in the reform bill? Of course not. This is not real reform. Is a take over. Socialist want to be able to control you. Mark my works. It's only a matter of time before they what you can eat or not eat, when you can turn on your lights and when to turn them off (smart grid), how far you can drive your car, how warm or cool you can make your home(carbon tax). This is not a path to freedom but to slavery. Anyone who has to depends on the government to live will be on the "plantation".

STXBob, Earlier in the thread you summarized Paul Krugman's presentation and one of the points you mentioned was:

- If healthcare reform passes, it will be very hard to take away, and will probably improve with time. That's why Republicans are trying so hard to prevent it.

Do you have any insight as to the definition of "improve with time?" I may be wrong but I read it as "fully socialized medicine." While I'm not against the goals of the Obamacare package it is the method of acheiving those goals that I am frankly scared of. I am scared because history is repeating itself. A government program is introduced at a small scale and eventually grows into a monster. The monster I forsee is full socialization of medicine. Ms. Thatcher's quote from above in the thread quite succinctly illustrates my personal problems with that.

I suspect STXBob that you are in favor of a full socialization of medicine. I suspect that you were in favor of the Obamacare package because you believe that this is the first step towards that goal. Hopefully I am wrong about this and please set me straight if I am. But I think much of the resistance to this bill is not to where it brings us now but instead to what it will likely lead to. I think the majority of American's are vehemently opposed to socialism and feel that this bill is the first step to eventually ramming it down their throats.

Sean

Nice job, Sean... It's great to see a civilized response that tries to advance the discussion.

To me this issue of free-market vs oversight does not have a solution that works all of the time. I think more independents were willing to vote democratic this time (for this president) because there was a perception that free enterprise had run amuck (the financial meltdown). The pendulum has swung too far from oversight. I suspect that you'll say that it isn't free enough. OK, but it's hard to look at all of the apparent corruption and believe that free markets will control that. On the other hand, it's equally hard to believe that socialism will not have waste and the potential to stifle creativity.

So, at this point in time, I think the push back from Obama supporters makes sense. The question to me is how much oversight is appropriate. I don't know the answer, but I think it has to be more than what we've had. If it gets to the point that it mostly stifles creativity then I'll want to move more towards free markets.

Do you think that free market insurance would avoid corruption? Is insurance the right paradigm going into the future, or have the insurance companies poisoned the waters? How do you tell a poor person that they don't get medical care because they can't afford it?

Poorthang: How would you get an average American elected to congress or president? They would invariably lose to somebody who is well above average. You said, “Give me someone who like our forefathers were just regular common folk who decided enough was enough.” Do you mean the founding fathers? They were well above average people. They were brilliant and the elite. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution, and they developed the banking system. Can you imagine what a less intellectually endowed group of people would have created?

Stiphy asked if I was in favor of a full socialization of medicine. I’m not a socialist, if that’s what you mean. See my repeated defenses of our democracy above and elsewhere. But there are socialist aspects in every decent society. We have socialized public education, roads, retirement system, etc. I’m in favor of decent healthcare for everybody, at affordable prices, without fear of bankruptcy. If the system “improves with time,” then it will provide better healthcare to more people, faster, and at lower cost. Does anybody disagree with any of those goals? Is there something more important than health, materially speaking?

Bassman said, “The profit margins of the insurance companies seem to be modest, below many other industries.”
Apparently they were too high.
From http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/03/23/health-care-reform-are-you-a-winner-or-a-loser/ :
“[With health care reform,] Insurers will also face a profit cap. Insurers will be required to spend 85% of premiums collected in the group marketplace and 80% of premiums collected from individuals and small group markets on clinical services and quality or provide rebates to customers. They will need to report their medical loss ratio beginning in 2010 and be required to provide rebates if they make too much money starting on January 1, 2011.”

"required to provide rebates if they make too much money". WTF Marx couldn't have said it better than our own congress. This bill is obviously an attempt to stifle free trade, bankrupt the insurance companies and in the near future cause a total takeover of health care by the gov.

Socialized public education is also one of the main tenants of communism. It is crystal clear to me that what is NOT in the constitution falls to the discretion of the individual states. How hard is this to actually understand?

I just want the greatest country in the world to have what every other major industrialized country and many developing countries have: Good health care for all. Call it a right or a privilege, but we have the means to do it, as demonstrated by other countries.

I don't understand the logic here STXBob. Just because other countries do this, it is a good idea? Maybe the better idea is not to have socialized medicine. As my mother would say, I suppose if other countries jumped off a bridge you would jump off a bridge too? Alot of baggage with socialized medicine from these other countries. There are a ton of issues like long times to get medical attention such as surgeries, quality of medical professional services, technology and care. Forget about the fact that we cannot afford it. That's why so many people come here for medical care.

Americans look for the best people to represent us. The result is a congress that is well-educated, well-spoken, with good leaders who think long and hard about their jobs (sometimes for their own benefit, but usually for the people's). You wouldn't want an average American to represent us. I'm speaking generally, and I know there are some exceptions, like bad representatives, or smart Americans who aren't in congress.

A little naive I think. Just because they are well educated and well spoken means nothing in terms of whether they or not they are doing the right thing for the country, or whether or not they are followng the constitution. They can also be idealogues who are after power and control and pushing toward an economic system of socialism vs. capitalism. Smart people can be wrong headed.

 

STXBob....Who let all these illegals into OUR country....who has allowed over 30 million babies be killed in OUR country...who takes almost 50% of OUR money for taxes and pisses it away.... I could go on if you'd like so WHO will stand up ....some slick jackass wanting to get re-elected for his own benefit or his buds....NOOOOO.....He's way to smart to do that isn't he.......???? BUT some guy who has seen the destruction of the middle class by allowing low cost labor to overrun the marketplace and destroy the standard of living the people who have sent our soilders to fight /die for........... The regular stiffs you think are below you have LIFTED you and many others to be part of a Great country.... MONEY and lots of it PLUS a candidate with common sense AMERICAN values could be elected and supported for President..... Hell...Sam Walton drove a beat up pick up truck ..... what a dumbass he was.....!

Damn,Poorthang. You are making me want to get into Politics instead of opening the Bar on St Croix. To bad people like us will never be supported for such offices, in the islands. Oh well,I guess I had better keep my uneducated ass in the kitchen. I just ordered the commercial smoker,it should be here in a couple of weeks. Look out St Croix,a Hillbilly cook soon come.

"required to provide rebates if they make too much money". WTF Marx couldn't have said it better than our own congress. This bill is obviously an attempt to stifle free trade, bankrupt the insurance companies and in the near future cause a total takeover of health care by the gov.

Socialized public education is also one of the main tenants of communism.

Sometimes government has to step in to prevent abuse. Today’s private insurance is about as abusive as it gets. Even with reform, they can still make a profit of 15% to 20%.

I haven’t studied communism, but socialized public education is not necessarily a bad thing. In America, it’s also known as free, tax-funded public education, and most Americans get their K-12 schooling that way.

It is crystal clear to me that what is NOT in the constitution falls to the discretion of the individual states. How hard is this to actually understand?

It’s very hard to understand, because we also have federal laws, which trump state laws.

Stt007: I’ll clarify my argument so it’s easier to understand. Good health care for all is good. We don’t have good health care for all. Some other countries do, which demonstrates that it’s possible to attain. Therefore, let’s attain it.

You say that socialized medicine comes with baggage, like long lines. Whatever medical care you currently enjoy, Obamacare is not taking away. You can keep using your current doctors and insurance.

I don’t normally have such a high opinion of congress. I’m being especially kind to them this week because they did a rare, good thing for the people.

Poorthang, I don’t know what to say, because I don’t know what you said. Sorry.

I’ll just ask everybody to think about this again: We had a broken, abusive healthcare system, which did not provide good healthcare to all. We elected officials who took a once-in-a-lifetime chance to pass and sign a law to take major steps towards healthcare reform. If they hadn’t done that, what was the alternative?

STXbob......sorry your higher education didn't teach you common sense and basic english.....My high school education and hard work allowed me to own a good business and a couple hundred grand a year... Hope you can keep up next time...

"Sometimes government has to step in to prevent abuse. Today’s private insurance is about as abusive as it gets. Even with reform, they can still make a profit of 15% to 20%.

I haven’t studied communism, but socialized public education is not necessarily a bad thing. In America, it’s also known as free, tax-funded public education, and most Americans get their K-12 schooling that way. .

Taking over entire industries is NOT stepping in to prevent abuse, it is clearly a power move to put more power in the hands of a centralized government. Where does it end? If enough people complain McDonalds is charging too much for a Big Mac, does the gov need to step in and run that industry as well? There is at NO TIME that the govt should be allowed the power to tell anyone how much profit they can make. That is not the job of the gov.

I agree that most people get the education through a tax-funded public education, however, the problem is when the feds overturn states rights and mandate the core curriculums, it is no longer the states that have control, which is overtly unconstitutional. My only point here is that just because it is accepted as normal, does not make it right.

It’s very hard to understand, because we also have federal laws, which trump state laws.

I’ll just ask everybody to think about this again: We had a broken, abusive healthcare system, which did not provide good healthcare to all. We elected officials who took a once-in-a-lifetime chance to pass and sign a law to take major steps towards healthcare reform. If they hadn’t done that, what was the alternative?

The US Constitution was designed to protect states rights, not to trump them. It was also designed to LIMIT the power of the fed gov. This is no longer the way it works and has become the 'norm' because most people have no idea of what the Constitution actually says.

Perhaps our system was broken, but it was the best system on Earth. I can't understand how anyone can applaud giving any more power over to the government. Neither my State's Constitution or the US Constitution guarantees me any level of access to healthcare. In a free republic, your life is what you decide to make it. "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. -Thomas Jefferson"

History always repeats. To those who think this is a good thing go to the library or on line and read Patrick Henry's speech to the Virginia house. Ironically given on March 23. We all know "give me liberty or give me death", but before that he said "I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided,and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry(federal government) for the last ten(fifty) years to justify those hopes..."

Why would any thinking person believe anything that comes from government? It is always a lie and always has been.

One more comment to add...I hate to gang up on STXBob, but I need to claify a point he made and I think he can handle it. The fact is the insurance companies today are required to spend 65% of revenues to pay claims. The majority of the remainder goes to salaries, administration, expenses, and funds to set aside for future catastrophic coverage in order to be financially responsible and viable in the future, and then some profit. With the health care bill, that 65% moves to 85%. that doesn't mean that there is a 15% profit margin or that there used to be a 35 % profit margin. The other expenses still exist, which is one reason why premiums will now go up. Thank you Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi.

And by the way, I'd like to know what the govenment does well, and/or does in an efficient, cost effective manner. And why would we believe they can handle a behemoth like 1/6 th of the US economy? God help us. At 55, I am not hopeful for a time when I will need the best health care on earth (which we have now), in my later years. They don't really care. They want power, and control of our lives, because we are too stupid to take care of ourselves. The founding fathers are rolling over in their graves, wondering what happened to the constitution that up until was a working document that has helped make this the greatest country the world has ever seen.

Stt007 I'm in agreement, except that "The fact is the insurance companies today are required to spend 65% of revenues to pay claims"<<
If this were true, why are they first & foremost about weaseling out of claims, legitimate claims?

I don't know about you, but who here has been f(_)(ked by an insurance company(my hand goes up fast & HARD!!!!).:-X :X
FYI:
Don't do business with any insurance company here who uses Crawford VI for their claim adjusting!!!!!

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich, you cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong, you cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down, you cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence." (Abraham Lincoln)

Alexander Fraser Tyler said it best:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over lousy fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world’s great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to Complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."

We have socialized public education, roads, retirement system, etc.

And this is exactly what scares me about putting healthcare in the hands of government. I went to a public school where 3 kids were murdered during my junior year of highschool. School was little more than daycare for most of my classmates. Roads...hmm, well I live in the VI where I popped a tire on my baby's STROLLER last week (seriously) :). Ok so I know the roads are better in the states, but roads are actually an easy one to put a "user fee" on in the form a gas tax which is what they've largely done and which does work pretty well. Retirement...seriously, Social Security will be bankrupt well before I'm age 65 by the government's own admission. 12.8% of my income is being stolen from me to pay into this Ponzi scheme. I was very amused when several democrats said this was one of the biggest successes since Social Security. If a Ponzi scheme is the idea of success I fear for the future of our nation and our nation's healthcare.

I definitely share your goals but I just don't think that this plan, or really any plan that involves a government takeover of healthcare will achieve those goals. I believe that we are where we are as a result of government intervention as I stated in my earlier posts, I don't think the solution to fire is gasoline which is what I feel we are doing here in asking government to fix a broken system that they were instrumental in establishing. On this we obviously disagree, and if things do end up better I will admit I was wrong. Unfortunately if I am right and this system fails I fear that the next solution will just involve making the system even bigger.

Anyway, thanks for the debate...I urge everyone to try to keep this civil...we are all allowed do disagree and it makes things much more interesting and fun when we keep the discussion toward the interesting and away from the name calling.

Sean

I must say that I am shocked by how many freedom loving individuals are on the board. From reading the local press I thought that most people in the VI were for big government.

I moved to the VI to get away from intrusive government but I think health care reform is great

The press keeps pushing the good points of the current law but we haven't seen r been exposed to the details that will by necessity be intrusive. There were probably other ways to get the good stuff without as much pain. Those options were not allowed.

Most people in the vi ARE for big government. But they tend to argue their case based on emotion so when facts and data are presented they have a harder time arguing their case....unfortunately it doesn't stop them completely from being illogical and off the wall. emotions take over and they can't control themselves. Give it time. They'll be baaack.