VI included in Health Care Bill

Hi,

All you government-haters do is complain and I'm glad. At least you're not trying to secede from the Union. Then the rest of us would have to suffer through another Civil War. And if some of you have worked for "the government" then I'm sure you have also renounced your pensions, right? If we're going to have a government then it should act like one. It should do stuff, lots of stuff. The more stuff, the better! I don't want to return to the Middle Ages and I want to be sure that all the nuts and bolts I buy are all machined to the same standards so they fit. Only a government can make that happen.

And read "The Great Transformation" by Karl Polanyi. He says free trade is an illusion and people will always ask their government to protect them from its consequences, even businesspeople and manufacturers. Would you rather have these last two groups rule your life? Don't you remember the experiences of our fathers and grandfathers?

Thanks,
PT

I guess if you read one book you become the authority on Gov. We have a Representative Republic form of Govt or we use to. Read the Constitution Comrade.

Right PT. I agree with you. What has made this country great over that last 200 years is not the free market, it has been government. I've lived overseas and I can tell you most people want to live in america. It used to be because of freedom and opporunity and probably still is but I am afraid the driving force might be more and more the nanny state so many cherish. As Ben Franklin once said, when the majority of people can begin to vote themselves money, it is the beginning of the end of the republic. Before health care, 46% of people received some level of funding from the government. After health care I am sure that is now over 50%. Big government is great because it produces so much, such as....let me get back to you on that one.

Margaret Thatcher once said that "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

PT as a matter of fact I have deferred it until I am 62,which I will more than likely never see. You don't even realize how close you are to the subjects you discuss. Your ignorance based on reading a book instead of taking an actual look around is astounding. Get a life or be ruled !!!! I am so glad to see where all of the money being spent on education is actually going.

Hi,

Actually, I have only read half. But it's really well-written and I extracted what wisdom I could and returned it to the shelf so someone else might reach economic enlightenment as I have!
My ignorance on reading a book? Isn't that what we're supposed to do, read books to banish ignorance? As far as being ruled - live free or die, right ... that's not an option since I'm still fortunate enough to be married.
The argument about spending other people's money...haven't we been fighting a war in the Middle East on same? But I very much agree with Ross Perot about jobs going South. If only. They went half-way around the world to China. How's that for traveling music?
I don't blame anyone for trying to forget the lives our parents had to live. I know they sighed when they saw me wasting their hard-earned cash at college...that's also been brought up here and I agree.

Some of you folks have bought the Party-not-in-power's Party Line....(oops!, Sorry !)... Don't be haters !... except you can hate Ronald Reagan - I don't care. And I thought there was a clause in the Constitution about no establishment of religion but Mr. R has been raised to sainthood? I like Constitutions, by the way, ours and others. Every country should have one. Even Cuba and Venezuela have one. They can be made up as you go along, it's easy!
I have no further interest in answering in detail the arguments directed against me. I can't. You're right in your own ways, all of you. But I pity your fundamental lack of understanding, is all.
Gotta make dinner now. Godnat!
PT

I'm just glad the gov't spent their time and our money on something for the people this time (I'm referring to Obamacare), instead of on another fake war or a bank bailout. The people haven't gotten anything this good in a long, long time, depending on your definition of good.

Maybe the difference of opinion about Obamacare stems from the goals of the program. I think the goals were to make good healthcare available to everybody, at lower cost, and to remove current abuses from private insurance companies. The poor will get good preventive care without having to wait until it's so serious (and expensive for others who end up paying it) that they need to visit the ER. The middle class will no longer have to risk bankruptcy because of illness. And the rich ..., well they didn't really have any problems that needed solving. I think Obamacare is a good start towards those goals.

If the Obamacare opposers disagree with the goals, then they will disagree with the program.

If you're opposed, do you think the goals were correct or incorrect, and then what would your solution would have been?

I don't yet know enough about the proposed universal health plan to support or oppose it.

I'm still wondering how much health care is a right.

ERs have been required to treat, regardless of ability to pay, and most state and local governments have offered free clinics, especially for public health issues like immunizations, but it is still unclear where to draw health care entitlement lines. We seem to agree on bright line health care rationing, like prohibiting IV drug abusers from getting scarce liver transplants, but there is little consensus on how to ration the majority of health care, and rationing is required because our nation lacks the ability to fund unlimited health care for all.

I support decoupling health care from employment, but am unsure about where to go from there, as I have been unimpressed with every universal health care proposal I've studied.

STXBOB,
Maybe you can explain how this program is going to work, or are you going to wait for the daily news updates and explain it to us. This reform was stuffed down our throats for political reasons. Its how it was done not why it was done.

Folks the goals of the health care issues are Nobel. But I promise it can't be done the way they claim it can.

PT, I apologize for being snappy earlier. You see I was dealing with Gov BS that had to be finished. I no longer need the things that I am being required to apply for. I will be in St Croix by the time the investigators show up for my interview. So in a nut shell they are spending at a minimum $4000.00 dollars on me again,just to do my job. I told them I was leaving and they said fill it out anyway,well what the heck, it is only our tax dollars paying for it. This reinvestigation I will go through again, is a solid waste of money. It is everywhere in the Gov and there is no end in sight for their stupidity.

I have spent 24 of my 45 years of life working for them,sure it is always changing and the change is usually for the worst.
Everyone on here is entitled to their opinions,whether we agree or not. Your post just caught me when I should not have replied. I see one thing on TV and read about it somewhere else,you see and read what you read, where ever you may see it. We form our own opinions based on our own beliefs. I still disagree with you but I should not have snapped at you. Later.

I'm still wondering how much health care is a right.

I just want the greatest country in the world to have what every other major industrialized country and many developing countries have: Good health care for all. Call it a right or a privilege, but we have the means to do it, as demonstrated by other countries.

STXBOB,
Maybe you can explain how this program is going to work, or are you going to wait for the daily news updates and explain it to us. This reform was stuffed down our throats for political reasons. Its how it was done not why it was done.

Here is a summary of the bill: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html
Are you critizing me for providing news citations? Sometime I paraphrase parts of it, like, "The poor will get good preventive care without having to wait until it's so serious (and expensive for others who end up paying it) that they need to visit the ER. The middle class will no longer have to risk bankruptcy because of illness."

What was wrong with stuffing it down our throats? How else was reform going to happen?

Or look at it another way: We elected congress, they passed it, and the president signed it. That's democracy. Please describe a better way to pass laws.

There is no better way, but that didn't happen did it. The majority of the people were not represented, or did I miss something? There are 14 State Attorney Generals That think the same thing. Lets see what the other Branch of the Federal Gov has to say. That would be the Supreme Court.

No, you didn't miss anything. We elected them, and they passed and signed it. They're not required to take a poll of the people first.

i, for one, am for health care reform. i would have preferred that the taxpayers were entitled to the same type of coverage that they've been footing the bill for, with their taxes, that federal employees enjoy. talk about socialized medicine, except the taxpayer gets none of it.

the provisions that allow for keeping people from being thrown off their policies mid-treatment, being denied coverage for pre-existing conditions such as having been the victim of domestic violence, or having rates skyrocket out of the blue will be slowly coming to an end.

the insurers will suddenly be flush with new customers, and competing with each other with prices and services just like the free market should be. there will be tax benefits to help smaller businesses. those of us who receive insurance through employers will be taxed on this as though it were income. allowable tax deduction for medical on individual tax returns will eventually be raised. people keep saying the rich will be taxed, and in fact everyone will pay.

here's the timeline of how things are expected to unfold: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9EKFKP00.htm

this is not free health care, because those who need it, already have access to it. the working poor and the middle class have had to rely on their jobs to provide insurance. even those who have good insurance, and are likely paying through the nose for it, would have stood losing it for a "pre-existing" condition suddenly discovered, or being dropped for getting too sick.

someone once mentioned in this forum that tort reform is even more important, and i agree. it would be up to the people to exhort their lawmakers for it, and for the lawmakers to be so moved to act on these wishes. unfortunately we cannot have everything we want. that is the nature of compromise, and of democracy.

We elected them to represent us, We the People. Court Case and elections will tell if they should have listened to the polls. What part of a Representative form of GOV don't you understand?

In this case the majority did not win. It was litteraly cramed down our throats by these so called elected oficials. There was and is an overwhelming majority that said put this health care issue on the back burner and start focusing on the jobs issue.

NOVEMBER SOON COME,THEN WE WILL GIVE A DIFFERENT PARTY A CHANCE TO SCREW IT UP OR GET IT CORRECT.

I'm just musing here, but: The average congressperson (usually a lawyer) is smarter than the average citizen. Maybe congress did what's right, and not what everybody wanted.

If it's illegal, the courts will overturn it. If we don't like it, we can replace our legislators with others who will repeal it. But why would anybody vote to repeal a benefit like this? Private insurers have screwed the people for decades. This legislation forces them to behave.

I just looked at a few recent polls and I see that the numbers are all over the place on approval or disapproval of Obamacare. The last survey seems strange. It shows a large margin of opposition, but there is general agreement that the current system is broken and gov't should fix it.

From http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_health_care_cbs_32223.php
QUOTE
CBS News
3/22-23/10; 649 adults first interviewed 3/18-21; 4% margin of error
Mode: Live telephone interviews
(CBS: story, results)
Note: CBS re-interviewed 649 adults, initially questioned for a poll conducted March 18-21, on Monday and Tuesday following the House vote.
National
Obama Job Approval: Health Care
47% Approve, 48% Disapprove
Before vote: 41 / 51
From what you've heard or read, do you approve or disapprove of the current health care reform bill?
42% Approve, 46% Disapprove
Before vote: 37 / 48
UNQUOTE

From http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_health_care_gallup_322.php
QUOTE
USA Today / Gallup
3/22/10; 1,005 adults, 4% margin of error
Mode: Live telephone interviews
(Gallup release)
Update: More here
National
As you may know, yesterday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill that restructures the health care system. All in all, do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing that Congress passed this bill?
49% Good thing, 40% Bad thing (chart)
UNQUOTE

From http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_health_care_bloomberg_31922.php
QUOTE
Bloomberg
3/19-22/10; 1,002 adults, 3.1% margin of error
Mode: Live telephone interviews
(Bloomberg: release, story)
National
Do you favor or oppose the health care overhaul plan currently under debate in Congress? (Language changed 3/22 to: ) Do you favor or oppose the health care overhaul plan passed by the U.S. House of Representatives last night?
38% Favor, 50% Oppose (chart)
For the following statements about health care, please tell me if you agree or disagree.
Health care is like police and fire protection, and the government has a role in making sure everyone has access to care they can afford
64% Agree, 34% Disagree
Health care is a private matter and individuals should make sure their needs are taken care of, through insurance, public clinics, or by paying for services directly
60% Agree, 35% Disagree
Health care is so complicated it is hard for the average American to understand the proposals that are currently being discussed
75% Agree, 23% Disagree
The cost of doing nothing on health care will be greater than the cost of the proposed plan to overhaul it
51% Agree, 40% Disagree
The current proposal to overhaul health care helps others but not me
48% Agree, 43% Disagree
The health care system is fine the way it is
20% Agree, 79% Disagree
The current proposal to overhaul health care amounts to a government takeover
53% Agree, 42% Disagree
At some point the health care system will need to be reformed, but not now
47% Agree, 51% Disagree
UNQUOTE

I'm just musing here, but: The average congressperson (usually a lawyer) is smarter than the average citizen.

I think your muse is confused, because you're confounding education with smartness. The average congresscritter may be a lawyer, and so may be better educated than the average citizen, but I think smarter than average people avoid political careers like the plague.

STXbob, Maybe congress did what's right, and not what everyboby wanted? The average congressperson is smarter than the average citizen? Sweetie would like to come to work for me? I am very smart. Not only am I the president of a corporation and much smarter than the average person I am also a great mommy and I know what is good for you so you don't have to ever worry about a thing. I will make all your decisions and take care of you. If you misbehave I will have to call the IRS to take you away.

The IRS. Wow. How did the IRS become the enforcers of Obamacare?. Is it just me folks or is something seriously amiss here. You know the folks with badges and guns who can take you away if they say you have cheated on your taxes. They were the only people who were able to take down Al Capone.

Lizard. It isn't what was done it was how it was done. So true. Are you all so willing to get what you want no matter how? Does the end justify the means. When did Americans decide to just settle? People we are the greatest nation in the world. That is why people want to move here. When did we quit thinking for ourselves? The land of opportunity, The land of the free, The home of the brave.

Why did our lawmakers exempt themselves from this healthcare plan?

Bob no one disagrees on the insurance companies screwing the people,they have been and will continue to screw the people, even worse than they are doing now. Hell the Federal Gov owns them,did we forget that ? What you promote is good but it just won't work as it is spelled out.

Bob,I think a person should take their education as far as they desire. But I do despise someone who has taken their education to the next level and looks down their nose's at others,thinking that they are in fact smarter. A congress person may have more education and in fact be a better spoken person,or a lawyer,which I would hope would be a better spoken person.It is after all a Lawyers job to represent their clients.

Some of the most educated people I know,Nuclear scientist,Lawyers,etc,do in fact have some of the worst personal lives I can imagine.Education is a good thing, but arrogance combined with education has created some of the worst people I know. People have called me many things in my life,some good,some bad but arrogant I will never be.

Their are more poles out there to look at and review,how do we ever decide which way, we choose to believe. I guess you can base it on ones experiences and beliefs. We are all Sh!+ house lawyers in our own minds.

STXBOB,
According to CongressMerge(cite)
435 Members in Congress
200 Senate
There is a combined total of 199 members at some point in their careers were Lawyers.
That's 199 out of 635=31%
So I guess 69% are just the not so smart average Citizens.
I guess you can muse on that8-)

Hi, all,

Hey chockman, thanks, and I can appreciate your anger. If the health care bill can at least make the insurance companies a bit more attentive to our needs instead of exclusively theirs it will be good.
This is all a serious issue, not to be treated as an opportunity to prate, as I have, about some book I leafed through in an idle moment.

PT

Sorry I can't say what I want to say cause It's a ........FELONY !!!....now...:-(

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/

How does the health care bill affect you?