VI included in Health Care Bill

Rock throwers, please check your facts first!

Small business owners will not be required to provide health insurance.

A Health Care Reform Bill Summary is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html
"Employer Mandate:
Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances."

Bob I guess my point is,speaking from experience here. The Gov has never done anything correctly as far as your tax dollars are concerned and they miss the mark every time. Oh we did not think of that,that will raise the cost you know. I may or may not live long enough to see all of this through,who knows. No guarantee in this life except DEATH AND HIGHER TAXES.

We will survive as we always do. You all just enjoy the weather and Sunshine. Trusting the Gov is something I am very familiar with and do not allow myself the luxury doing. I could read the Bill 100 times and it will still come down to semantics and nothing more.

Bob thanks for the help with the Ice distributor. This health care thing just scares me and makes me wonder what my future will be and how much it ultimately cost us all. If it is better,then that is great. I just keep hearing the old saying in my head,that says.Be careful of what you ask for,you may just get it.

stxbob, i had question marks on those sentances as i was not sure what was said about that. i do appreciate the clarification. that is what i was hoping for. no rocks were thrown or harmed in the making of this post :@)

I think those of you that refer to the health care reform as providing "free health care" misunderstand what is going on, and are misleading others a la Fox News and the Tea Baggers (Really? In a historical context I know the message they are trying to invoke, but they couldn't come up with a better name? My kids giggle every time a reporter refers to them on the news.).

People will still have to work and pay for health insurance, only now there will be an affordable gov. alternative to the private plans. All the material things we aspire to attain will still require money to buy, so there will be our motivation to work. People without that motivation didn't have it before, so really nothing has changed in that regard. While I think everyone can agree that the reforms are less than perfect, I believe they are a big step in the right direction-similar in importance to the imperfect Civil Rights Act some 45 years ago. People back then said it was the beginning of the end too.

In theory these reforms will force the private insurers to price their coverage more competitively-a great deal has already been posted in this thread about the excesses there, so I won't rehash the statistics. Another benefit is that all the newly insured will have a doctor. No more going to the extremely expensive emergency room for routine or non-emergency care. These people will also have access to preventive care, so illnesses that are not prevented should be caught early enough to save lives and greatly reduce costs.

A general observation I'd like to insert here is this: Obama was elected on a message of change, presumably because we the people were unhappy with the way things were. However, from the day he was elected the powers that be have fought him at every turn, and done all they can to make him look bad. Now there is growing talk in the media about how Obama's "failures" and this health care legislation could hurt the Democratic Party in the next elections. To those of you that feel somehow things are not going how you had hoped let me ask you this: Do you remember how bad things were when Obama took office? Do you recall who's watch we came into this mess under?

If I refused to disengage the emergency brake, but complained that my new car didn't drive fast wouldn't you think me a little odd? Maybe not the best analogy, but I think you get my point. Thanks.

Now Sadie,lets quit blaming Bush. Fox news even makes fun of the poor guy.

The one thing that you say that does no compute is,there will be an affordable Gov option. Affordable and Gov do not belong in the same sentence. If I desire to succeed in my business venture,I will not operate as the Gov do. I'll be broke before I can open the doors and then jack my prices up so high,you would not be able to afford a bottle of water.

This whole thing could have the potential to be great. But come on,all you have to do is look at the facts. They say they can save X amount of dollars from fraud waste and abuse on medicare alone. They can't clean it up now and that is a fact. So we will make it bigger and throw more money over here instead of there. You have not seen fraud waste and abuse yet.

Remember,it will get a lot worse before it gets better. Those are not my words by the way. You are correct in stating that it is not free health care.People like those of us who work will pay for it,like it or not.

Here's an interactive tool to calculate what to expect.

Washington Post tool. What changes to expect?

OK . I just figured out what my problem is today. It must have something to do with the earths gravitational pull or something. Don't research this one, I don't have a clue as to what I speak of and I darn sure can't back it up with any scientific evidence.

However my daily horoscope said.

You may find yourself immersed in the unusual, off beat or strange today Pisces. It might feel like you are trying to swim against the current at some point. But thats OK ; You may be running the risk of offending those who care only for the status Quo.

I was wondering what had my underware all wadded up today. You might as well laugh at it all anyway,or appluade. Enjoy the day folks.

Noah. Thats pretty cool if it works out. It will be a lot cheaper than what I pay now. But what will it really cover hmmmmm ?

Hmm, looking over an old copy of the US Constitution and can't find a single thing in there about health care... or just about any other govt program that is out there. Govt is way too big and out of control. I bet today's events bring out a record number of voters in November, or at least I hope it will.

For all of us I hope you are right Sadie.

As you say this is the start of things and I think ultimately it will lead to full on socialization with universal coverage ala Europe. This is where I reference the "free healthcare" bit. We may not be there now with this bill but I think we will end up there when this system doesn't work out. Government loves to fix problems that it created by introducing more government. Time will tell.

And you said "Teabaggers" haha. Really stupid name 🙂

Sean

Stiphy. Now, I did just read this,so I do have the evidence to back it up. For those who want to know where I read it " FOX NEWS " and yes I read and check them all. I am not a one way SOB as some of my prior post may have shown.

Read about the new powers that the IRS is granted and how they will be the ones who will decide if your coverage is good enough or not. And yes if they don't agree with you,they will fine you etc,etc. Lets not forget about the possibility of 16500 new IRS Agents to get this job done. Yes we should pay some taxes,but I pity the fool who takes this new job. How can an American doing that job,look at him or her self in the mirror. Honor and Integrity are nothing but words these days.

16500 Possible new IRS Agents on the street. HOW IS THAT FOR JOB CREATION ???? Lizard,remember to check your six. The bastards are everywhere.

I still think that something is missing here. I could interpret the study (I'd have to fill in with some additional info/observations) as:
- Americans have the highest obesity rates in the World.
- so, we are very unhealthy
- so, we spend more on medical research and procedures to try to deal with our poor level of health
- we're not winning the battle, even with the amount that we spend on health care
- therefore, spending more on health care is a good thing.

Now, I'd be much more worried about this study if I found out that:
- we spend more on health insurance (I don't question the validity of this)
- the "system of health care" was not improving appropriately (better diagnostic ability and more/better cures/repairs).

I suspect that what's missing from the equation is the role of technology evolution. Technology has improved to the point that we can do much more medical research (genetic understanding, imaging of anatomy, computer modeling, etc) and many more medical procedures (minimally invasive surgery, better implanting, growing various cells, body part replacements, etc). I don't think it's cheap to implement this better technology. I just think that when health care improvement opportunities become available, they are going to get high priority. But, it might be that return on investment is not there yet... maybe the technology improvements are not addressing the most pressing medical issues. I'd much rather spend our money on medical technology than on a war in Iraq.

I also suspect that the insurance companies are using a significant portion of that increased GDP spending on the business of raking in profits, at whatever cost. I'm sure that at some point in our history they added value. I just don't think they add value anymore.

So, in summary, I'd like to see us reform the "economics" of health care delivery. And I'd like to see us spending more of our GDP on the business of "developing state of the art, quality health care".

why is it a given that increased percentage of GDP on health care means that we are wasting money? Is it possible that this means that health care is a higher priority and we are spending more, to get more. Don't we have better diagnostic tools (like MRIs) and surgical tools (like Da Vinci robots)? I don't have any facts... I'm just wondering.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States :

"At least 15% of the population is completely uninsured,[1][2][3] and a substantial additional portion of the population is "underinsured", or less than fully insured for medical costs they might incur.[4][5] More money per person is spent on health care in the United States than in any other nation in the world,[6][7] and a greater percentage of total income in the nation is spent on health care in the U.S. than in any United Nations member state except for East Timor.[7] Despite the fact that not all citizens are covered, the United States has the third highest public healthcare expenditure per capita.[8][9] A 2001 study in five states found that medical debt contributed to 62% of all personal bankruptcies.[10] Since then, health costs and the numbers of uninsured and underinsured have increased.[citation needed]

Active debate about health care reform in the United States concerns questions of a right to health care, access, fairness, efficiency, cost, and quality. Many have argued that the system does not deliver equivalent value for the money spent. The US pays twice as much yet lags behind other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy, though the relation between these statistics to the system itself is debated. Currently, the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than most of the world's industrialized nations.[nb 1][11] The USA's life expectancy lags 42nd in the world, after most rich nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th).[12][13][14] The USA's life expectancy is ranked 50th in the world after the European Union (40th).[15][16] The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[17][18] A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.[19]"

So, we pay a lot, and we get a little. And the US is the only industrialized country where you can go bankrupt from medical bills. If you don't have proper medical insurance, and you get seriously ill, the choice is often bankruptcy or death.

Maybe things will improve after Sunday.

who says those 16,500 new IRS agents will be " americans" ?????. the guy who audited me was a foriegn national from africa...He was born there... was in the army there and came to the USA to "WORK".... I'm not making this up... fact....now do you feel good???? now you know how I came up with my name......OH YOU..!!..... OWE ..!!.. YOU POORTHANG:-(

I was thinking of a dual citizenship kind of thing. You know if we put our heads together we can figure out how to make it work in our favor. Just remember,America,the land of the free. That is free to do as we say.

The Problem with the IRS is they don't follow the Food chain theory of the Big Fish eat the little fish. When you're audited you start a the bottom and work your way to the top. This now puts you smack dab in the Peter Principle (promoted to the highest form of incompetence). If you file a simple W2 or 1099 with appropriate schedules you shouldn't have a problem. However if you receive Passive international income from several countries with different tax treaties, as Donnie Brasso would say (FORGETABOUTIT" your only chance is tax court.

Please all. When has the government ever done what it says? when was the last program that costs what was projected...not 10x. Let's all use common sense backed by experience. All this sounds good in theory but we are talking about the government here, dealing with a bureaucracy that doesn't care because the civil servants (insert joke here) get paid whether they do a good job or not, and they certainly don't care about customer service, increased productivity or improved efficiency. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Time to get real.

STTOO7. Wow,wow,wow. Do not say Civil servants when you talk about Gov employee's. I think you mean elected officials. I am considered a Civil Servant and guess what ? I am running away from them as fast as I can. St Croix will not be far enough but it is as far as I am going. Many of us see the stupidity of Government operations on a daily basis. You know what ? They suck.

If I have learned anything with over 24 years of Gov service,it is the fact that I do not want to even remotely operate as they do. The true problem is exactly what Lizard said about the Peter Principal (Promoted to the highest form of incompetence). There are so many idiots in positions of authority that nothing gets done. It is just a pass the buck, blame game. We have operated for years now under the guise of,it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I guess you really have to live it to fully understand it.

Lizard,I wonder how much of our tax paying dollars were spent to go after the Car wash owner in California,who owed them $.4 cents ? Whops I almost forgot he also owed them another $200.00 for penalties and interest. I'M not a math whiz by any means,but the end does not seem to justify the results.

Great discussion. The people that see that the government can't do anything right but buy votes with goodies are right. Right wing,left wing ,chicken wing if they are elected they use our money to bribe us and get returned to office. Social security is a Ponzi scheme that's broke medicare,medicaid,and the new prescription drug bennie all broke. The government caused every problem we have with regard to medical care(and other things) and says they will fix it. If we had a free market we would not have the problem,the idea that anything in the health field is free market is laughable. Have any of you noticed that when the feds are divided,congress and prez different parties, they don't do big things and we prosper(see Reagan,Clinton).

I was just strolling down memory lane...like the last time I was in the DMV or had a happy conversation with a pleasant, customer focused postal worker who wasn't going postal. And remembering that medicasid costs 25 times original estimates. I could go on.

This is puzzling? Why do we have to be divided in order to prosper? We are in the United States of America not the Divided States of America. I have supported the views of our past President even through a war that will go down in history as being on of the most expensive mistakes in America. Our current president is trying (only one yr in office) to help America with reforming health care and ending the war in Iraq but what he gets in return is racist people disguising themselves as "teabaggers" parading around the US without a clue. I am not a republican or a democrat but it is obvious that some Americans cannot judge pass the color of a person's skin. I pray for President Obama and I wish him well!!!! The health care bill has passed so like it or not, it's here to stay... Some people see the glass half empty and i see it half full.:-)

Bougainvillea,We are not divided to prosper. Racist ? No reason for that here. I myself am a little left and a little right. I find myself being more of an Independent,who is shying away from Government control.

It is the Government that is separating itself from the people. We need Governments and Laws as well, but they have most definitely forgotten who put them there in the first place. All that I ever needed to know about our current President was the fact that he left his radical Church after 20 years of so called faith,he did not know Reverend Wright had radical views. All I can say to that is, the Man is not a Man of his said convictions. This Leopard will never change his spots.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. That is the only way I know. I to hope that the Health care situation works itself out,but with the Government in control,history says otherwise. We can't change each others minds via this board,we are what we are. But please don't bring the unnecessary race card out. The only time his color of skin popped into my mind today ,was after reading your post.

I think those of you that refer to the health care reform as providing "free health care" misunderstand what is going on, and are misleading others a la Fox News and the Tea Baggers (Really? In a historical context I know the message they are trying to invoke, but they couldn't come up with a better name? My kids giggle every time a reporter refers to them on the news.).

People will still have to work and pay for health insurance, only now there will be an affordable gov. alternative to the private plans. All the material things we aspire to attain will still require money to buy, so there will be our motivation to work. People without that motivation didn't have it before, so really nothing has changed in that regard. While I think everyone can agree that the reforms are less than perfect, I believe they are a big step in the right direction-similar in importance to the imperfect Civil Rights Act some 45 years ago. People back then said it was the beginning of the end too.

In theory these reforms will force the private insurers to price their coverage more competitively-a great deal has already been posted in this thread about the excesses there, so I won't rehash the statistics. Another benefit is that all the newly insured will have a doctor. No more going to the extremely expensive emergency room for routine or non-emergency care. These people will also have access to preventive care, so illnesses that are not prevented should be caught early enough to save lives and greatly reduce costs.

A general observation I'd like to insert here is this: Obama was elected on a message of change, presumably because we the people were unhappy with the way things were. However, from the day he was elected the powers that be have fought him at every turn, and done all they can to make him look bad. Now there is growing talk in the media about how Obama's "failures" and this health care legislation could hurt the Democratic Party in the next elections. To those of you that feel somehow things are not going how you had hoped let me ask you this: Do you remember how bad things were when Obama took office? Do you recall who's watch we came into this mess under?

If I refused to disengage the emergency brake, but complained that my new car didn't drive fast wouldn't you think me a little odd? Maybe not the best analogy, but I think you get my point. Thanks.

Thank you. I think you have said it best....

There should be no war, we should all love one another and everyone should have health care. They all sound great and who could be against it .. on an emotional level. But let's dial in real life. There are evil people in the world. That is a fact, so we must have war to protect ourselves. Human nature. Some people don't want to be loved. And we cannot afford health care for all. No duch thing as. Free lunch. Medicare/caid cost $3 billion in 1966 projected to cost $10 billion in 15 years. Cost in 2008? $600 billion. Want your doctor and hospital to be run like the DMV, and as customer focused? You got it!

And by the way, if this bill is so great, why did confess and the president exempt themselves from it?

STT007. You nailed my exact points. Trust the Gov to manage anything ? BS . For those of you who think bigger Gov can and will take care of you,you are sadly mistaken. Peace,Good will and all of that lovely sounding stuff does not exist in the real world,once in a while it pops up. But if you are not willing to kill to get it,you will always remain under someone Else's boot heel.

It is the nature of life.The strong will survive. The meek my in fact inherit the earth but the strong will always survive.