OT: HR3200 - you may read the health care reform bill as it develops

During WW2 war material production demands increased a demand for labor. (and material).
Naturally demand this lead to a competition for labor.
The value of labor increased due to said demand and in fact outright shortages - especially of highly skilled labor such as missile, aircraft, and electronic engineers.
The result of this competition for both skilled labor (and raw materials) was increased cost to the war materials board and so increased the cost of fight the wars.
The feds in a heavy handed move implemented wage and price controls to theoretically control the cost of goods.
(remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions)

Business was forced to find ways around the rules to meet contractual obligations.
So as an incentive to draw labor the idea of providing free health care as a way of avoiding the wage freeze laws arose.
It was a "benefit" and not a "wage" and so not under the control of the wage and price board..
Prior to this if your were ill you went to the doctor - tho very likely the doctor made a house call to treat you in your own bed.
No office overhead at all as the doctor prolly worked from his home and you paid his bill in cash or perhaps chickens and eggs...
Doctors were not generally wealthy but did OK.

The newly invented "health care benefit" incentive naturally became a given if a business wanted to hire the best. Eventually you couldn't hire anyone of skill w/o providing this "benefit" war or no war.
Also as a cost of doing business the health care "benefit" was tax deductible and so business had less incentive to bargain hard for health care.
Because the patient was now disconnected and immune from the cost of health care doctors and hospitals could charge more and patients didn't care.

Fast forward 6 decades and health care is out of control. This I do not dispute.

The root cause was government intervention in a free market. It just doesn't work long term.

Look it up yourself and you will see I am not trying to deceive you.

The answer is not more regulation but less.

Price control ended when the war ended, Health care continued and by 1957 seventy five percent (75%)of the people were covered by some form of group health care paid for by employers this was considered the norm. Today Fifty percent (50%)of the people are covered by some form of employer Group Health Care and a projection of 1.2% decrease each year there after. Employers hire more part time employees, outsource, use jobbers, and consultants, with the downturn in the economy and lost jobs the 1.2% figure on the decrease side will be larger. Govt had nothing to do with employers cutting these benefits. Employers started to charge for family plans and employees dropped the coverage because of the expense. In 2007 thirty five percent (35%) of the Children were insured by employer group plans in 2009 this figure dropped to twenty five percent (25%). There is no price control on insurance costs. The price is whatever market demands. That market is created by the insurance companies not the employer not the Govt. The regulations that are in place at present are no more than an oversight that the Insurance companies will pay the bills. This is called a third party payer safety net. Rates are based on size of companies and location. The same Blue Cross Blue Shied plan costs vary greatly. A Family plan in the NY metro area are double what it would be in SC.

.....

Fast forward 6 decades and health care is out of control. This I do not dispute.

The root cause was government intervention in a free market. It just doesn't work long term.

Look it up yourself and you will see I am not trying to deceive you.

The answer is not more regulation but less.

I have genuinely been trying understand were you are coming from. It is obvious that you feel strongly that a complete and unregulated state is the best state. I'm not sure where you developed this bias, but in fact history tells us that it just is not the case. Do you really think that health insurance companies without regulation would give up the billions of dollars in excess profits made on the backs of working Americans? Not a chance!! Do think health insurance companies would willingly accept all potential customers, rather than the most healthy that pay them a bigger profit? Not a chance!! Rules and laws are about protecting people from abuse.

You are not trying to deceive us, you really are a true believer. When you made a comment earlier that President Obama was trying to destroy the USA, all sorts of warning lights went off here. That is not a rational statement. The swastikas , guns and Nazi slogans we are now hearing from the fringe groups in this country are absolutely terrifying. I hope that you have not chosen that group as your allies. I can't help but think that your rigid thinking will make life in St Croix very difficult for you.

Set me up did you? 😎 I think not LOL. But good on you for risking serious discourse (tu) and not telling me what a "bubba" am I

How does your reply negate what I wrote?

Price controls may have ended.

(Really? Many states have set minimum prices on beer.
Why is the government regulating the cost of beer to begin with?)

The effects did not.
Companies started to force their insureds to co-pay and otherwise share the costs so they would not abuse the benefit and therefore increase the costs of doing business. Employers outsource labor costs to reduce labor costs because government regs make the cost of hiring so expensive. This is also due to tax regulations that are conceived to "encourage" the governments good intentions. I.E. Social engineering. On a construction job they work us to death rather than hire more people because of the government forced overhead makes it cheaper to pay me to work 12's and 10's and pay the OT. This make sense? If a business can deduct health care as a cost of doing business why can't I as a private citizen deduct the cost of privately purchase health care? What logic is that? How does this make health care more affordable?

I don't need a 47 yr old political hack who has never made payroll - or in fact done anything tangible telling me how to live my life.

Canada is mostly empty and they have a wide open emigration policy. If their health care system is so good please fell free to relocate and avail yourself to it but DON"T tell me I have to subsidize people who think the world owes then a living to make you feel good.

If you really want to make things better start small and work your way up and I will support you. How about insane jury awards because bad ole company has deep pockets. Does a cash award in a wrongful death suit bring any dead back to life?

TANSTAAFL!

Ms Information thanks but please don't put words in my mouth.
I am not an anarchist nor do I think a purely libertine way of life will work.
Human greed and stupidity just too strong but can possibly be reduced by education. But clearly NOT government provided education.
Greed and stupidity by politicians however may be genetically impossible to overcome. Do you read DemManSay?
Who votes for these people?
Have I advocated storing people in projects? Do I want to encourage single motherhood?
I recently overheard two young ladies discussing the fact if their friend didn't "pop one out pretty soon" they weren't gonna give her no money.
Heartbreaking. I have suffered depression a long time because I DO see the human condition and it breaks my heart to see life as it truly is.
Ever work in a school system? You see these bright little kids at kindergarten and as you watch them grow you often see them become more and more surly until one day you have a Michael Vic on your hands.
I want people to have the opportunity to proudly stand on their own two feet. NOT handicapped by hand outs.

I'll wager I'm a lot less ridged than you in my thinking.
As I previously have written I was about a left as you could get. Did you see the list of periodicals I put up?

I have been and wish to return to cruising because of the opportunity to meet and learn from other cultures.
Ever been to Brasil? I have. People livin in tin shacks in the favelas with NOTHING are often much happier than people living here with no worries because of "government" support.

My Spanish is limited as is my French. However seu fala português ?

BTW. What do you think about line marriages as the best way to insure a good home and healthy children?

here's the latest scare tactic from the head bubba http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.htm

Nothing Michale is saying is new. I'm a little shocked at the lack of understanding. This is all basic history and economics 101. Regardless of how you feel about healthcare we should all know what happened in our last century. Read up on Micro and Macro economics. It all comes down to some wanting more govt interference and some wanting less. For capitalism to function at its best you definitely want less govt.

I am shocked at people saying they don't think this will raise taxes, especially for the middle class. Look at the countries that have universal health care. Of coarse you will be paying more. I don't feel bad at all saying I don't want to pay for more welfare. Welfare needs to be cut back not increased. We are creating a culture of victims or a welfare nation.

There are much better ways we can reform health care then just give it all away for free.

Have ANY of you talked to any doctors? Haven't talked to one that is pro this. They are going to take huge cuts under this plan. I don't think many of them will go for it. Especially the good ones. Often you get what you pay for.

Does anyone know the last time a new health insurance company was started and had any success? Lizard mentions the biggest ones that have been around for years and are clearly not doing a great job. But if they aren't great why haven't competitor's emerged to do a better job? Why are we looking to government to do this?

The healthcare industry is one of the most regulated industry's in the country. The established parties (aka the insurance companies Lizard mentions) love this as it prevents true competition from emerging. They have lived off of this of years and are very likely the source of much of the regulation in order to keep themselves entrenched.

I am not an apologist for the insurance industry. But I contend that the government has created a problem through over-regulation that they then look to solve by taking over the industry vis a vis socialization.

Maybe the established insurance companies have played their hand a little too deep and are about to get burned. Unfortunately I fear the American public is going to take the brunt of the heat.

Sean

Contrary to the rhetoric of some, health insurance is no back-door attempt at creating "socialized medicine", where government directly owns hospitals and employs doctors. Rather, the aim is to implement a system much like members of Congress have today. People can choose from a range of quality, affordable private health plans, offered either by their employer or by state or federally supervised insurance "exchange". Plans will have to accept everyone regardless of health or age and have strict limits on cost sharing so coverage is affordable for all. Unfortunately, the myth machine is out in full force today. Rather than addressing the issues with constructive dialogue some would spend their energies misleading others. Special interest defending the status quo are employing an array of scare tactics, half-truths and outright deception in trying to convince us that the system is not in critical condition. The reality is that with health care costs eating up 16 percent of our gross domestic product and the rising cost of medical care taking a toll on millions already struggling in this economic crisis, we cannot truly fix our economy until we fix health care. Where are we going to be at without changes in our health care system. Your health care insurance premiums will double over the next ten years, the Medicare trust fund going bankrupt and the number of uninsured continuing its meteoric rise. That's what we will have without meaningful health insurance reform. We have a chance right now to take the steps that will make us healthier, both collectively and individually, lets not blow it.

Have ANY of you talked to any doctors? Haven't talked to one that is pro this. They are going to take huge cuts under this plan. I don't think many of them will go for it. Especially the good ones. Often you get what you pay for.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2009/07/29/ama-healthcare-reform-bill-a-starting-point.html

Actually the AMA is supporting the current healthcare legislation. They know that we are heading for a major health and financial catastrophe unless changes take place. The fear mongers and hate mongers and special interests are feeding the basic fears and frustrations of everyday Americans. Betty, your comments reflect the fear and mistrust that is common today. Most of us feel that our elected representatives have let us down and we cannot trust them. While we now have a president we can trust, little else has changed. The hate groups are using healthcare reform as their weapon against our President. They are in effect holding us all hostage.

If I did not recognize the overwhelming need for healthcare reform, I too would be sitting back finding reasons to stop it because it will not be done EXACTLY as I want it to be done. Even the biggest critics will admit that things are a mess and need to change. You talk about the cost of healthcare getting more expensive, be warned that the cost will continue to go up and up anyway. Without reform you will pay more and get less. That means that it will cost you more to leave things alone rather than change them. That is the point that the fear mongers forget to tell you.
Nobody is getting healthcare for free, not illegals, not poor people, not old people.

I find it very funny that Obama is trying to create his own religon. If we don't agree with him we are hatemongers or fearmongers and people need to go out to their neighbors and preach till they are on the right path. Only the ignorant are going to fall for such a ploy.

All of you that are in support of this bill act like you actually know what it's going to be. It's 1000 freakin pages. Don't feed me that BS. We have no idea what it is and right now its a stinkin hot mess.

The AMA was in support of it as a STARTING point several weeks ago. Now it has morphed into a nightmare. I have little doubt what most of the members thing now.

They need to start from scratch again to get any support from me. I know we need reform but this one will be a disaster. Wasn't this the President that required the credit card company to outline the fees and charges in PLAIN ENGLISH????? What the heck happened to his bill???

If you eliminate all the chaff it seems to me you can broadly categorize this debate.

Those who trust government.

Those who do not trust government.

So what do the historical data say about trusting the good intentions of government?

Look around you.

Wasn't this the President that required the credit card company to outline the fees and charges in PLAIN ENGLISH????? What the heck happened to his bill???

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE54L5S220090522

The CC bill is law.

Bombi you Totally missed the point. I know it is law. I will spell it out. If he strongly felt it was necessary for people to understand their credit card bill, how much more important should it be that they write a bill or law that the general public can understand? Especially about health care. Only an idiot didn't understand their credit card bill to begin with. Most lawyers don't understand what's in this healthcare bill.

I find it very funny that Obama is trying to create his own religon. If we don't agree with him we are hatemongers or fearmongers and people need to go out to their neighbors and preach till they are on the right path. Only the ignorant are going to fall for such a ploy.

LOL, this reminds me exactly of what people were saying a few years ago about G.W. If you didn't agree you were "unpatriotic" or "a terrorist." They all use the same tactics and unfortunately the ignorant fall for it again and again.

Sean

You can relax now.

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama guaranteed Thursday that his health care overhaul will win approval and said any bill he signs will have to reduce rapidly rising costs, protect consumers from insurance abuses and provide affordable choices to the uninsured — while not adding to the federal deficit.

We are all saved!

Here's something important to understand about the AMA endorsement of the bill: only ~19-33% of US doctors belong to the AMA*, so the AMA's endorsement of the bill is almost meaningless (except for the way it misleads the public to think that all doctors are for this bill)

*number varies by source and the AMA appears to count medical students and non-practicing physicians as members, further diluting the AMA's relevance

Most doctors I know are for some type of reform of reimbursement but they are not for THIS specific bill for reasons I have stated in other posts.

Here's something important to understand about the AMA endorsement of the bill: only ~19-33% of US doctors belong to the AMA*, so the AMA's endorsement of the bill is almost meaningless (except for the way it misleads the public to think that all doctors are for this bill)

*number varies by source and the AMA appears to count medical students and non-practicing physicians as members, further diluting the AMA's relevance

Most doctors I know are for some type of reform of reimbursement but they are not for THIS specific bill for reasons I have stated in other posts.

You are right, the AMA does not speak for all doctors, but it does give a doctor's viewpoint. I agree that we do not yet have the specific legislation pending that will suit me, or many people. That doesn't mean we have to reject everything that is discussed.

What i have been objecting to are the lies and distortion tactics being used by the president's haters. Even they know that we need to do something, but refuse to cooperate. I understand fully, because when George Bush was president, I hated much of what he stood for. However I never thought he was trying to destroy the country, I just thought he was misguided and stupid. Unfortunately some of President Obama's haters have made their decision because of his race. They announce this regularly and are part of the anti-reform group. They are joined by the special interest groups and many everyday Americans who are confused by all of the rhetoric.

Ms Information Nancy Pelosi stood in front of the cameras and spouted a bald face lie that those opposing what they were hearing at THM were carrying swastikas. Well if you are accused of playing the game one might decide to go ahead and join the team - but more likely it's part of a dirty tricks campaign to make it look like one who opposes what BO wants is a nut case.

Queen Nancy is BO's biggest liability.

"They are joined by the special interest groups and many everyday Americans who are confused by all of the rhetoric."

This is another tactic of the obama's group is using. You're a fear monger, hate monger or you're stupid and confused. Why don't you get the fact that maybe just maybe they DON'T AGREE with what he is doing! It is ridiculous to think that many people are all confused. It's beyond insulting and condescending.

I really think Obama's the one with the great fear campaign going. Anyone who does not agree with him is attacked. He actually told people today to go knock on their neighbors doors and start preaching till they understand. It just feels like he's turning into so weird creepy preacher.

Unfortunately some of President Obama's haters have made their decision because of his race. They announce this regularly and are part of the anti-reform group..

I have yet to hear a single person state that they are against healthcare reform because of the President's race - I highly doubt you have either. Talk about rhetoric. Turning everything into a race issue is wrong.

Unfortunately some of President Obama's haters have made their decision because of his race. They announce this regularly and are part of the anti-reform group..

I have yet to hear a single person state that they are against healthcare reform because of the President's race - I highly doubt you have either. Talk about rhetoric. Turning everything into a race issue is wrong.

I did not say that all opponents of reform are in that group. However they do exist. As an example the "mainstream" Fox News has it's hands full with Glenn Beck.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200907300019

i honestly think he's trying to do the right thing,sorry, but i drank his kool-ade the day he won the nomination

However they do exist. As an example the "mainstream" Fox News has it's hands full with Glenn Beck.

LOL...yes we all know fox is very republican and cnn is very democrat. Are you JUST learning this? Honey its been this way for quite a while. They balance each other out. Just stick to your cnn. You can't rely on tv to make your decisions for you, its all tainted. Do your research and make your own decisions.

but i drank his kool-ade the day he won the nomination

So your point is you really really like him? 😉

On the AMA issue, many feel that they have been part of the problem. I don't think we should think of them as anything more than another special interest in all of this:

From the criticism's portion of wikipedia on AMA:

Criticisms
Critics of the American Medical Association, including economist Milton Friedman, have asserted that the organization acts as a guild and has attempted to increase physicians' wages and fees limit by influencing limitations on the supply of physicians and non-physician competition. In Free to Choose, Friedman said "The AMA has engaged in extensive litigation charging chiropractors and osteopaths with the unlicensed practice of medicine, in an attempt to restrict them to as narrow an area as possible."

Profession and monopoly, a book published in 1975 is critical of the AMA for limiting the supply of physicians and inflating the cost of medical care in the United States. The book claims that physician supply is kept low by the AMA to ensure high pay for practicing physicians. It states that in the United States the number, curriculum, and size of medical schools are restricted by state licensing boards controlled by representatives of state medical societies associated with the AMA. The book is also critical of the ethical rules adopted by the AMA which restrict advertisement and other types of competition between professionals. It points out that advertising and bargaining can result in expulsion from the AMA and legal revocation of licenses. The book also states that before 1912 the AMA included uniform fees for specific medical procedures in its official code of ethics. The AMA's influence on hospital regulation was also criticized in the book.[13]

The AMA and other industry groups predicted an over-supply of doctors, and worked to limit the number of new doctors. But recently, the AMA has changed its position, predicting a doctor shortage instead. [7]

The fact that the AMA has come out for this plan does nothing but make me want to scrutinze it even more. It seems like they have NO interest in making sure healtcare is "cheaper," just that more money ends up in the hands of doctor's.

Sean