Fix to the Economy

Let's see. 40,000,000 times 3,000,000 = 120,000,000,000,000.
In the US that would be 120 trillion

Do the public schools here teach long scale or short scale?

Rotorhead,
When you say "here" did you mean Florida or VI? I believe the article came out of a Florida Newspaper. What's up with that?

Lizard,
I was using "here" to mean the VI. If the two summary lines were part of the original article then the Florida newspaper needs to hire fact checkers. The US is a short scale country. $120 trillion is a little more than the currently proposed stimulus package which is already absurd.

I think they were speaking Governmenteese. They say 1.2 Trillion but really mean 120 trillion. That's what it would end up after they added all of the pork barrel add ons.

Well guys I said about a month ago that my plan to fix the economy was to give each American over the age of 18 fifty thousand dollars. Those that were behind on their mortgages would pay their debt and pay off credit cards. Those who were not in debt would buy new cars or buy a home in forclosure. That would work. I don't know if the amount I suggested is too much or not enough but not near the money that is being thrown at the banks or AIG. Is it just me, but I have a problem with our govenment using our tax dollars bailing out private interprise and then hiring or firing the officers of those companies. People what you accept today will be your tomorrow. First comes socialism then comes communism. All of you that are 50 or older go back to the time that you were 20 and were sudden fast forwarded to 2009. Scares the heck out of me. If you put a frog in boiling water he will jump out. If you put a frog in a pot of cold water and slowly bring it to a boil he will stay in the pot and die. We are frogs my friends. Just my opinion.

Giving money to anyone is guaranteed to only do one thing in the long run, it devalues the money.

I know that everyone knows this but its sometimes bears repeating when all you hear about is how the govenment is going to print and spend like crazy to get us out of this recession.

Money is a simple tool, much like a measuring tape, that we use to measure what our work is worth to others. We can bank our work up by saving, give it to others etc. and it stays such a basic measurement tool.

Unfortunately we seem to have lost site of this. You cannot simply create more money and give it away to people without devaluing the money itself. The value of the work doesn't change just because the tool you use to measure it changes. To print money and hand it out is the equivalent of saying "I want a bigger boat" but rather than make a bigger boat just change the tape measure so that each foot is 11 inches. Of course the person who wants a 30 foot boat would simply now ask for a 33 foot boat under the new scale. All you've done is devalue what it means to be a "foot."

Our pain may be spread out more by doing some of the things we are doing, but in the long run that pain is still going to be there, and may be worse than it would've been if we would've taken the hit all at once. Changing the tool we use to value things doesn't change their true value and is a dangerous thing to start messing with as it will invariably favor some over others creating future uncertainty which will further paralyze us economically.

Inflation is a real killer.

Sean

How about instead of bailing out companies like AIG...again...we put that money to actual good use.
Pay off Federal Student Loans. I know i could afford to do A LOT of things without those student loan payments each month, no matter how small the interest rate is. We teach kids to go to school and get a higher education, but most kids are taking out thousands of dollars in loans to afford to go to school to get a higher education...and are stuck paying it off until they're in their 30s/40s.

How about instead of bailing out companies like AIG...again...we put that money to actual good use.
Pay off Federal Student Loans. I know i could afford to do A LOT of things without those student loan payments each month, no matter how small the interest rate is. We teach kids to go to school and get a higher education, but most kids are taking out thousands of dollars in loans to afford to go to school to get a higher education...and are stuck paying it off until they're in their 30s/40s.

I agree with that we shouldn't "give" any money to AIG. But how is it right to pay your student loan when I slaved working a full time job while I went to school full time to pay tuition. Now the government turns around and pays off your student loan, how's that supposed to make me feel? Like a sucker for slaving behind the counter at Subway or working until 1am at the local TV station every night rather than enjoying the "college life."

I bought houses I could afford, I didn't buy things I couldn't afford on credit cards. I work very hard to accumulate what wealth I have. It seems downright evil to me to suggest that with a stroke of a pen we expect the government to "give" what I've worked hard for to others who did not make the same tough choices and sacrafices.

Also when you "give" to one group you take away from another. You either tax those who created wealth more to give to those who didn't create wealth or you print more money. But as I said in my prior post, when you print money to give it to a group you deflate the value of the money to those who earned it, reducing its value to them.

I am tired of giving to those who made bad choices. I'm tired of giving to able bodied people who choose to not work as hard as I. I am tired of giving to major corporations that behaved like criminals in scamming people out of their money to make a quick buck and now expect a bailout. Of course it's 3am on a Thursday, I've already put over 40 hours in this week, so maybe that's why I'm so tired :).

Seriously though, I find suggestions on how to "give" away my money, to devalue what it means to work as hard as I do infuriating. I know its easy to get swept up in the idea that money is free and meaningless when you see our government bailing out companies but it is not. We work hard based on the idea that money has meaning and value and to "give" it away destroys that meaning and value, thus destroying the meaning and value of our work.

Sean

IMHO. nforbes is exactly right. And the idea has truly conservative philosophical underpinnings.

When I graduated from high school, I got a full scholarship. In those days (1950s), scholarships were based on three criteria: (1) student performance, (2) family need, and (3) the institution's ability. The philosophy was based on John Dewey's notion of education as basic to a democracy and the conservative view that government should do that which only it can do or which it can do better than individuals can.

When did the radical extremist idea come into play that there was profit to be made in the process? When did it occur to someone that commercial banks could profit from government-insured student loans?

The capitalist free market system works reasonably well for many goods and services. It does not work especially well for essentials that we all might agree are fundamental human rights for all: a basic level of nutrition, decent housing, adequate clothing, education, health care, safety, and security. Market failure is common in all these areas. Government intervention can improve market outcomes.

Everyone gains from education. A great teacher and nation-founder said that education must be universal, high quality, relevant, and socially responsible.

Helping graduates to pay off student loans would serve many purposes, including that identified by nforbes. It could mark the return of higher education funding to the time before "Greed is good" became an operating philosophy.

Sean, I know how you feel. Despite my scholarship, I also had to work. I worked midnight to 7 am in a printing plant, then ran to my 8 am class. I was a lifeguard for 50 cents an hour. I worked 6 days a week in the summers. Rich kids didn't do those things. You shouldn't have had to do those things. It's not fair. As JFK said, "Life's not fair." We can't fix all the problems of the past. But we can do better.

My vision is that, at least in VI, residents will be able to receive education at all levels without respect to their family's income or wealth.

As always, it's just my opinion.

What about zero-interest loans? The banks loan the money, government pays the interest. That would keep the receivers responsible for paying for their loans, society would have more, better educated people and the government would not be paying off everyone's loans for them making those who came before (like me) furious. Maybe we could all live with that.

HOORAY FOR YOU!!! i AGREE 100%
Why should the taxpayers pay for someone to go to school and party?
Yes we the tax payers need to see to it that CHILDREN get a good education, but that's not being done despite the vast amount of cash that is being dumped into the system.
Why should we have to pay for continuing education so adults can get free education? If there was some kind of pay back IE: they work in public works such as free legal or health care for a stated period of time that would maybe be ok. The ones who really want to make something out of their lives will find a way.

Teachers are the most underpaid professions in this country. Here in AZ this week hundreds of elementary school teachers have been told they will not have jobs next year.

There was a joke in the paper in this weeks comics called Grin and Bear It. It would have been funny if it did not seem so true.
A government spokesperson was addressing a group of reporters saying " We have figured out what to do with all of the detainees of Guantanamo (sp?). They will be absorbed into the faculties of our universities."

I don't like the idea of paying for higher education either. There are so many grants and scholarships out there. Not to mention there are other ways to make it work. I got my slowly by working nights and paying for it myself. And it all depends what you want to do if you really NEED a college education. Forbes just had an interesting article about billionares and what they had in common. Most of there tech guys never went or never finished for example, but the financial guys all had great educations. If you're dream is to own your own business I don't think you need a college education, but you need some accounting education and training in your business of choice. If you want to be a teacher, you have to go to school though.

That would pay off Octomom's student loans. Then she could have another litter.

Just what the country needs, more FREE stuff. TNSTAAFL.

The demise of the great experiment which is the US of A will not come by being overthrown by an external power. It will come when the producers are outnumbered by the non-producers and they vote themselves more free stuff. At that point the producers will take their marbles and find a new game.

What should a citizen of the US expect as an entitlement? Free food? Free housing? Free health care? Free education all the way through college? Free transportation? Free Internet? The problem is that nothing is really free. It's simply another form of wealth transfer. Look at Earned Income Tax credits, tax refunds for people who didn't pay taxes.

Did I start the last paragraph "citizen of the US"? I should have said "Anyone who can sneak across the border into the US". How absurd is it that if someone sneaks across the border and has a child that child is a US citizen. Why doesn't at least one parent have to be a citizen?

Welcome to the US, have a free lunch on us!

boy do we think alike!!

Ever notice how "everyone else" is overpaid?

Truth is, we ALL owe somebody.

Facts about sending kids to college for free:
If the average college educated person earns $1 million dollars more in their life time than a high school graduate, then the money they pay in income & sales taxes on that 1 mil far exceeds the cost of their education. College educated people also commit fewer crimes, have fewer children, and tend to pay for their own health insurance.

Thus, the argument should not be "nothing for free," but rather, "what can we make more affordable that will pay long term dividends for everyone."

A person born in the US has the right of citizenship. That's the way it's been since the country was founded.

Even diplomat's children born here and children born while their foreign parents are traveling in the US have the right to claim US citizenship when they reach their majority.

This is such a basic tenet of our heritage, culture and legal system that I am astonished that anyone would disagree with that right. Why should his/her parents' status have any bearing on the rights of the child?

Making such a change to correct our immigration problems, in my opinion, is definitely throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I disagree Neil if everyone could easily get their college degree then we would be arguing that getting your master's or doctorate should be free. Employers will just require additional higher education to make more money.

A college education is silly for many professions because you just start at the bottom rungs anyways along with the people that don't have a college degree. I'd rather see a reform in college where it teaches you what you really need to know for your profession and gets you out quicker so you don't have to go as long and pay them so much.

Lets face it most educations could be shortened by at least a year or two. I know I would have preferred to skip all the basic crap I did in high school and get to the meaty stuff. By my senior year I could not wait to get out and was more then a little resentful.

The problem of social welfare began with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. Public housing. welfare, food stamps, aid to families with dependent children. An incredible incentive for just doing nothing. Now 2 generations have lived under this warped philosophy. And everyone expects more and more. The man is going to take care of you. I have a lot of ideas about how this should change but I' sure they would not be popular. Two very important things have been taken away. Respect (self) and responsibility and if change did come it would again take generations to re emerge.

Here in AZ the problem is that people sneak across the border, have their "anchor babies" so they can stay in the states. It's almost impossible to get timely care at a hospitals emergency ward because of all of the illegal aliens using it as a delivery room as well as a free doctor's office for anything such as the common cold.
Our health care cost are out of control due to this and tort costs.
I guess this is what makes some of us want to change the rules.

Many down-island babies are born here & in Puerto Rico for the same reason. A friend who was a nurse for the Health Department at the hospital told me of the costs of transporting one of these anchor babies born here in distress off-island in a medical ambulance plane. It has to be paid for somewhere & I guess that's another reason health care costs here are out of sight at the hospital IF you have insurance & why I have to continually go to Puerto Rico.

Wow, I thought I would be ostracized for my comments but it seems like more people then I expected think along the lines I think of.

As for making higher education free to its consumer (nothing is free, someone pays for it), others have said what I feel but I wanted to throw in a personal note. When I value something I have absolutely no problem paying for it. In fact having to pay for it validates the choices I made in my life that allows me to pay for it. I find it rewarding to be able to pay for my healthcare. I found it rewarding to be able to pay for my own college (for the most part, I did have a merit based scholarship based on my hard work in high school that helped a bit). I find it rewarding to put food in my mouth. I appreciate what it means to be able to look at myself in the mirror and know that the things I have I EARNED.

When I can't get something I want or need because I can't pay for it this tells me that I have to change my behavior. I have to work harder or smarter to get those things I want, which means I have to help others get what they value more. I think helping others is good and I think the best incentive for us to help others is financial. To give things away "for free" diminishes our financial incentive to help others in the ways they need help by taking away one of the most important things that motivates us to do so.

From a practical standpoint I think that any financial aid for college should be contingent upon grades/success. I had far too many friends in school who were there on student loans who were pulling C's and D's because of the choices they made that ended up dropping out with a ton of debt to their name. For those who clearly want to acheive I agree that a support structure is important to provide a framework for them to "get off the ground."

I personally believe that this framework is better served thorugh voluntary charity rather than forceful govenrment intervention via high taxes. If this was the case I'd have the freedom to give away part of my money to charities that are in line with my ideas, and you would be free to give to those who support yours. With the current system we have no choice, we are forced to give our money to the government and let them decide, with an infrequent vote that is often hardly more than a popularity contest being our only say in the matter.

Anyway, thanks for the great discussion!

Sean

my philosophy is, when you give someone something for nothing... that's what they think it's worth. nothing.

even on the dole, folks should do something to signify that they are receiving something of worth. it's better for the person.

i was born and raised at poverty level and got myself off welfare when i was 20. it was a great feeling. however, i know that if i ever need it temporarily, it's there. my tax dollars paid for it. but i don't want to be on it for the rest of my life. 28 years and counting.

when you are in it, you don't feel like you'll ever get out, though. the agents treat you like trash when you go to recertify yourself, and they sure do look down on you. that was incentive enough to me.

on the other hand, multinational corporations are on welfare now, using my tax dollars to get themselves out of a jam, so i did not know it then, but i was in good company. hope they can stand the humble pie.

Bombi, "The problem of social welfare began with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society."

With all due respect, some of us believe that "social welfare" is not a problem, but an obligation of being part of the human community.

I spend a lot of time in East Africa. My brothers and sisters in that part of the world truly believe, "It takes a village to raise a child." In our home, there are always little ones who may or may not be part of the biological family. But they need a Mama and Baba, so there they are.

They get food and clean water and a clean bed with a roof over the heads. More importantly, they get respect.

We can learn a lot from our African heritage.