Disrespect or laziness?

Talking about proper attire, no one seems to be offended by the girls in spandex standing on the corners at Times Square every night. The police don't even slow down to offer them advice on their attire. They are much more offensive than a few tourists in bathing suits and T-shirts.

I have seen many locals in swimming suits at the beach.

I guess the overly large ladies in spandex selling themselves at Times Square EVERY NIGHT is part of the local culture but those tourists in bathing suits are being disrespectful. This is on one of the two main streets in Christiansted. I know if you live on St Croix you have seen them. Corner of Company Street and Times Square. They have been there for as long as I have lived here. >10 years.

So what do you think? Which is more disrespectful to the local culture, hookers in spandex or tourists in bathing suits and T-shirts.These spandex outfits leave nothing to the imagination. Both are walking the streets of Christiansted in plain sight. Should we tolerate the hookers and complain about the tourists? Should the police ticket the tourists when they ignore the hookers?

Yes we should hold the tourist to a different standard.

Responding to Marty's quote of the local laws.... https://www.vimovingcenter.com/talk/read.php?4,126438,page=1

The operative phrase is appearing in a bathing costume "such as to offend the public decency."
If it doesn't offend the public decency, it ain't a crime.

Not complaining, but just pointing out once again "The myth of Crucian Cultural Conservatism" is dispelled by so many common and obvious things, that I'll only name a few:
=The large percentage of baby-mamas.
=The proclivity of cleavage and low cut tight attire on women both young and not so young.
=The Carnival Parade

You quoted the law about public urination...

Thanksgiving night I followed a VERY drunk driver down the Eastend road, through Csted.
White Chevy Cavalier, plate number: CDV 581. You swerved numerous times and almost hit several cars you bozo.

When I got to Basin Triangle, the drunk driver went through the (red) light but I pulled into the abandoned gas station because I saw a police officer standing there and wanted to report the drunk driver to him.

The officer was peeing against the wall of the gas station.

And of course, the police station is directly across the street there. *-)

He did take down the license plate, and sped off down the northside road in pursuit.

Carnival is historically outlandlish and revealing. It is supposed to be the day where you are not yourself and do things not possible in your normal life (like crazy dressing). If you read up on the origins of Carnival in the Caribbean, the celebration has its roots in an annual festival that slave masters allowed their slaves to have in Trinidad. It was a day when the slaves dressed as masters, African people and other characters and live out a fantasy...So really, Carnival is an example of typical VI culture because it allows normal people who are typically conservatively dressed to "go all out" for the day. I know I saw my bank teller in a troupe last year...

I find that more people are conservative in terms of dressing than not on the island. The ones that aren't are an exception and more indicative of the declining influence of traditional culture. It is sad that such a decline is happening since I think that there is nothing wrong with a tradition that encourages people to look well dressed. It's not that crucian cultural conservatism is a "myth" or hypocritical or non-existent, its just being eroded away by some of the younger generation that don't care.

Yes we should hold the tourist to a different standard.

I say we should make them wear spandex when they are in Christiansted! 🙂

Do you think that Virgin Islanders should be held to a different standard when they go to the states?

Neil,
It wasn't Marty's quote of a public law, It was a copy of the law as writtren. Does the word "or" mean anything to you!:-X

Folks, it's simple. We live in a place where in order to get a driver's license, ladies have to wear attire that covers their shoulders. That should say it all. If you have questions about "why" or "what is decent", go stand in line at the BMV to ask your questions, and let us know what kind of answers you receive. *-)

I'm sure this isn't done with the intention of disrespecting others. I do it personally for my own comfort. Any disrespect taken is the result of that individual's connotation. To judge and think poorly of, or take offense to, someone who is probably a very nice person is atrocious. Where's the love and acceptance? What happened to live and let live? Tolerance of diversity is supposed to be the thing that unites us all, is it not?

No one has even attempted to answer Keiran's question.

Neil,
It wasn't Marty's quote of a public law, It was a copy of the law as writtren. Does the word "or" mean anything to you!:-X

Sorry Lizard, but you're misreading what Marty wrote. As I read it, it's not a matter of "or".

or who shall appear upon any public street or thoroughfare within town limits of any town in the Virgin Islands in bathing costume or any similarly abbreviated attire such as to offend public decency;

To my understanding of the english language, the final phrase is the operative qualifier.
Appearing in a bathing costume is not outlawed.
Appearing in a bathing costume or abbreviated attire THAT OFFENDS public decency is the qualifer.

Of course, "what offends the public decency" is always a matter of debate.
Like Supreme Court Justice Stewart once replied when asked to define pornography, "I'll know it when I see it."

What ever happened to respect for others? To say you dress for your own comfort is really saying you don't care about those around you.

I believe that standards of conduct often depend on circumstances. If I am a visitor in someone' home (or country) I believe it is my responsibility to know what is acceptable and what is not. I would respect a request not to smoke in someone's home, even though I would be more confortable smoking. Why would I not be willing to respect the laws of a place I am visiting in the same way? And if I can't abide by my friends request not to smoke or the VIs request to cover up a bathing suit while in town, I should just stay home.

Regarding the women in Market Square, another person's bad behavior does not give me license to behave badly. "Everybody doing it" is an excuse for children.

Neil,
Tell The Judge that the operative qualifer negates the specific language of Bathing Costume. That's rich!(td)

It's an old law and an old problem, largely because it is entirely subjective. For example, people are naturally more critical of those of their own gender than the other.

Personally, I think it comes down to self respect. It is less about what one wears as how one wears it. Spandex or speedos or body size and shape are beside the point if someone carries themselves neatly and well. I frequently work with tradespeople and believe me I know how to get dirty and sweaty. Despite that, or maybe because of it, few things are as disspriting as waiting in line behind someone in a stretched out but otherwise clean teeshirt, white socks and slides. One gets the sense they would dress better to mow their lawn than to go to the post office.

Neil, you can try to argue your point all you like...it doesn't change the Officer's interpretation, or the law as it is written, in it's entirety:

§ 1022. Obscene and indecent conduct

Whoever—

(a) (1) exposes his person or the private parts thereof in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby, or who exposes himself or takes part in any model artist exhibition, or makes any other exhibition of himself to public view or to the view of any number of persons, such as is offensive to decency, or is adapted to excite lewd or vicious thoughts or acts; or who shall appear upon any public street or thoroughfare within town limits of any town in the Virgin Islands in bathing costume or any similarly abbreviated attire such as to offend public decency;

(2) procures, counsels, or assists any person so to expose himself, or to take part in any model artist exhibition, or to make any other exhibition of himself to public view or to the view of any number of persons, such as is offensive to decency, or is adapted to excite to lewd or vicious thoughts or acts;

(3) writes, composes, stereotypes, prints, publishes, sells, distributes, keeps for
sale, or exhibits any obscene or indecent writing, paper or books; or designs, copies, draws, engraves, paints, or otherwise prepares any obscene or indecent picture or print; or molds, cuts, casts, or likewise makes any obscene or indecent figure;

(4) writes, composes, or publishes any notice or advertisement of any such writing,
paper, book, picture, print, or figure;

(5) sings any lewd or obscene song, ballad, or uses any lewd or obscene words
over any radio station located in or operating within the Virgin Islands, or in any
public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended
or annoyed thereby;

(6) uses vile and obscene language in public streets or places or in private places so as to seriously disturb the peace; or

(7) urinates or defecates in public places

—shall be fined not more than $100 or imprisoned not more than 90 days, or both

(b)For purposes of this section, a woman's breast-feeding a child in any public or private location where the woman's presence is otherwise authorized does not under any circumstance constitute obscene or indecent conduct

—Amended June 12, 1959, No. 475, § 3, Sess. L. 1959, p. 85; June 24, 1963, No. 1030, § 1, Sess. L. 1963, p. 393; Sept. 18, 2002, No. 6570, § 49, Sess. L. 2002, p. 546.

And, Neil, Lizard is correct, not you..lose one point.... "Sorry Lizard, but you're misreading what Marty wrote. As I read it, it's not a matter of "or"....how you read it doesn't matter...only how the Law Enforcement Officials do...and they read it right out of the Code...as I posted it, thereby giving the individual Officer their own prerogative to enforce it how they deem necessary at the moment...

What ever happened to respect for others? To say you dress for your own comfort is really saying you don't care about those around you.

That is a big leap and a terrible assumption, Linda.

Smoking was a poor choice for an analogy. This compares something harmless with something harmful. Smoking leaves a film and a smell on everything in the area, has a negative impact on health, and can trigger Asthma attacks in those susceptible. Smoking in public is culturally acceptable. What level of concern or respect does this show for those around you?

Neil,
It wasn't Marty's quote of a public law, It was a copy of the law as writtren. Does the word "or" mean anything to you!:-X

Sorry Lizard, but you're misreading what Marty wrote. As I read it, it's not a matter of "or".

or who shall appear upon any public street or thoroughfare within town limits of any town in the Virgin Islands in bathing costume or any similarly abbreviated attire such as to offend public decency;

To my understanding of the english language, the final phrase is the operative qualifier.
Appearing in a bathing costume is not outlawed.
Appearing in a bathing costume or abbreviated attire THAT OFFENDS public decency is the qualifer.

Of course, "what offends the public decency" is always a matter of debate.
Like Supreme Court Justice Stewart once replied when asked to define pornography, "I'll know it when I see it."

Neil,
I disagree with your interpretation. Technically.....if there were a comma...."bathing costume, or any similarly abbreviated attire, such as to offend public decency., then I would agree with you.

I must agree with Justin. Smoking in public is the ultimate sign of disrespect for those around you. Others should not have to request that you don't smoke, you should realize that you are putting their health at risk by smoking. Even in an open air venue. Smoking is one of the number one causes of death in the country and it is a joke when you notice that our drug laws do not reflect this

" If you must smoke, please do not exhale! "

Folks, it's simple. We live in a place where in order to get a driver's license, ladies have to wear attire that covers their shoulders. That should say it all. If you have questions about "why" or "what is decent", go stand in line at the BMV to ask your questions, and let us know what kind of answers you receive. *-)

i can't even get a straight answer about my registration at the BMV...haha

and Justin, nobody has tried to answer simply because there is no real answer. I was just wondering if anybody else would take a stab at why they were actually offended. truth is, it's just what has been engrained in their minds from a very young age. Different cultures around the world have different views on what is appropriate for dress, speak, violence, etc. and that's why you can see full frontal nudity and hear the "F" bomb a hundred times on TV in countries like Denmark, yet there is almost NO violence shown. Who's right? it's a matter of opinion and culture. in my eyes, i'd much rather live in a world where violence is tolerated less than a little skin.

Kieren,

I find your going in a bathing suit so offensive, in fact I find the photo in the right hand corner of you without a shirt so very offensive that I am going to smash my computer screen!

Just kidding!!!!!:@):D:P;)
Can't wait until Feb to come back and go diving with you John ( Kieren ).

Terry

I'll take a stab. Why is it offensive? Because people of a certain age have been taught that morals are desirable. Those people have also been taught that it is immoral to dress "indecently" in public. They have been taught that it turns a weak mind to unhealthy thoughts, shows a lack of respect, a lack of education. (Face it, the guy running around town without a shirt is probably NOT the mayor of his town back home, the CEO of a big company, the preacher or school principal. Not saying he isn't a person of value...just saying....). Then there is the question of hygiene. People don't want to brush up against a person without a shirt, who may even be sweaty or dirty.

I started out with "people of a certain age". Some of the younger generation does not seem to have the same regard for the customs. However, I do believe (just my opinion) that the younger folk from "good homes" will preserve the culture, to the best of their ability. Who knows?

Now, the question is, "Who's right?" I go with local custom. There are plenty of places to wear little or no clothes. Split the dif...wear your thong at the beach and put on a shirt in town. If it makes others more comfortable and shows respect for the culture you have chosen to live in the midst of, why not?

Clothes make the man! 😉

I am not sure about the others on this forum, but I did not choose to move down here to live among the culture. I chose to move here because the weather is warm and the ocean is beautiful and it is under the US flag.

As for the culture, I pick and choose the parts which I care to embrace. I love the local food. Especially stewed goat.

When it comes to issues of morality, the local culture is broken. While it would appear that they are very conservative in some ways they are just the opposite.

Has anyone ever explained the local concept of "inside family" and "outside family" to you. Many of the local men feel that it is completely acceptable to have children not only with their wives but also with their mistresses. I know many locals who have this arrangement. The wives seem to accept it as long as the husband provides for them.

One of the tile layers who worked at our house, a local guy, explained to me that he had 13 children by 8 different women. When I asked how he supported all of those children he said that's not his problem, that's the mothers problem. I do not care to embrace this part of the local culture.

I was trying to use the spandex ladies to show this dichotomy. I personally do not mind the spandex ladies, I am not a prude. One of my local friends will always stop and chat up the spandex ladies when we drive by, check on the prices and how business is going.

I say embrace the parts of the culture that you respect and push back the limits of the parts that you do not. That's how change occurs and many things need to be changed here in the islands just like they do up in the states.

Kieren, Jaunita and Rotor...well put!

I am not sure about the others on this forum, but I did not choose to move down here to live among the culture. I chose to move here because the weather is warm and the ocean is beautiful and it is under the US flag.

As for the culture, I pick and choose the parts which I care to embrace.

Ditto..

Except for the stewed goat part, lol.

Oh, I agree. I certainly don't embrace or respect many of the things that get shoved under the heading of "cultural", but those are things (like dog fighting, for instance) that I have been taught, and know instinctively, are wrong. But asking someone to put on a shirt is hardly the same thing. It's just proper, like chewing with your mouth closed, saying excuse me when you burp, holding the door for the guy behind you. None of those things are laws, but if you have any raising, you do it. How someone dresses doesn't hurt anyone, but neither does eating with your mouth open. Go ahead and do that, even talk while you chew, and you may find people don't want to eat with you.

It's really not that big a deal to me. I am seldom downtown. I just hate to see graciousness slipping away.