Beating head against a brick wall

jane: You left the USVI because of crime, among other reasons, so why do you keep reading this board? If you weren't able to change things when you lived here, do you think you can now, when you don't?

IMHO, until we have districting or numbered seats, there will be no accountability and outrage doesn't help.

because I cared and still do about the USVI - just because I left, doesn't mean that I have quit caring.

Maybe no one responded because this issue has been discussed ad nauseum. It is not brushing the issue aside by pointing out the nature of most of these crimes. Most if not all of the murders are drug related and black on black. Facts are facts and to deny that is delusional. If you don't feel safe in the U.S.V.I. then by all means you should move.
I will agree with your statement that you get the government you deserve and in our case the police department you deserve. Until the majority of citizens in the U.S.V.I. stand up and demand change and vote for change it will not happen.

I find this response insulting. I am from St. Croix...was raised and educated there..I am now 47. I have seen it all the good and the bad. While I do not live there full time now I still care about the island and it's conditions. Let's not put our heads in the sand. It may not be pretty but we all need to look in the mirror and be honest about what we see as embarrasing and shameful as it is from time to time. Being critical of those that dare point out areas of concern does not change the problem.

Jane,

I'm one of the thirty-eight who read your initial post and I didn't respond because I don't agree with you; I don't think any additional "outrage" will eliminate the violent crime that have you so concerned. East Ender has a good point about districting and accountability. I would like to add that I think government corruption is responsible for most of our territory's ills. In my opinion, as long as the vast majority of islanders benefit from corruption in some small way, or know someone who benefits from corruption, there will be few folks willing to forego those benefits and fight their friends and families to eliminate corruption.

Violence is "within a mile or less" of everyone everywhere and much of the violence in the Caribbean stems from illicit drugs, as the Caribbean is a key traffic route for those who ferry illicit drugs from Central America to the states. Perhaps U.S drug policies bear a substantial part of the blame for island violence. Deeming some drugs, like alcohol, legal and others, like marijuana, illegal is inconsistent and the distinction is artificial. After all, far more violent crime results from alcohol use than from marijuana use. Also, anything that's illicit for everyone, regardless of age, seems to generate an artificially high amount of interest in children for that thing whereas when something is merely restricted by age, like alcohol, that thing has far less appeal because it's perceived as something only "old" people do. Habits formed in childhood, like drug or food abuse, are extraordinarily difficult to overcome in adulthood. Furthermore, when there is a market for something illegal, an underworld develops to supply that market and generally that underworld makes life more violent and dangerous for everyone. Perhaps much of our island violence could be eliminated if U.S. drug policy treated all drugs like alcohol: legal, taxed, available without a prescription and off-limits to minors. Or we can keep telling our kids to "Just Say No."

I'm glad to hear you're happier back in the states. As far as getting the government one deserves, I hope Bush's policies are more to your liking.

dear don't wait up
Bush? Where did that come from? Oh, because I am anti crime and violence I must be a Republican - how uninsightfulcan you be.
get off your soapbox re. the legalization of drugs. The problem in the VI is so much more complex than that simplistic blurb.
Violent crime is NOT within a mile of everyone - that was my point.
The Virgin Islands have deep and intense problems that have created an atmosphere in which murder flourishes - no more rug sweeping, no more down playing, no more minimizing,
Tell the newbies what is really going on - no more ..."just like everywhere else" that is a lie!

Hi jane.

"Bush? Where did that come from? Oh, because I am anti crime and violence I must be a Republican - how uninsightful can you be."

No. You said that "you always get the government you deserve" and I was pointing out that by returning to the states you are trading the corruption of the VI government for the Bush government and that I hope you are content with the trade.

"get off your soapbox re. the legalization of drugs. The problem in the VI is so much more complex than that simplistic blurb."

You think our problems are "so much more complex" than my "simplistic blurb" but you believe that more outrage will help solve those problems. Hmmm.

"Violent crime is NOT within a mile of everyone - that was my point."

Wrong. For example, there are doubtless women and children within a mile of your stateside residence who are brutally assaulted by their spouse/boyfriend/father on a regular basis.

"The Virgin Islands have deep and intense problems that have created an atmosphere in which murder flourishes - no more rug sweeping, no more down playing, no more minimizing,"

Those of us who have moved here from the states chose to come here. Most folks who move here from the states have options and for many of us it would be easier and fiscally smarter to return to the states – and yet we stay. If the problems here were any worse than stateside problems many of us would leave.

"Tell the newbies what is really going on - no more ..."just like everywhere else" that is a lie!"

Nobody has ever suggested that living in the USVI was like living anywhere else. Most of what transpires on this board is explanations of the differences between life on a Caribbean island and life in a state. Unlike the states, we have frogs that spit poison and kill pets. Unlike the islands, states have railroad crossing fatalities. Both the states and the Caribbean have folks killed over drugs. I'm sorry you felt misled about life in the USVI and I'm glad you're now living somewhere where you feel safe.

You are right; the newbies always come with visions of white sand beaches and perfect weather but with litle real knowledge of what it takes to live in the VI. It's a tough place and it will eat you up if you're not tough right back. But crime is everywhere. Some places have lower crime than the VI, some have higher. Some places within the VI have higher crime rates than other places within the VI. What I would tell newbies about crime is: Don't go in to neighborhoods where there is crime. Don't try to buy drugs. Don't associate with criminals. What I would tell the newbies about life in the VI, in general, is: Don't try it if you like creature comforts, processes that work logically, or efficiency. If you meet all of those criteria, live here for at least 6 months before you make a permanent committment.

peace.... bert

No one who comes here is fully prepared for life on a poor, small island. But all we can do is speak from our personal experience.

I'm pushing 60, have a little income from the states, have a part time job and have lived here for 3 years. I have experienced inconvience, annoyance and frustration. I have experienced kindness, politeness and warm hearted people. I have not experienced crime or violence.

I give advice/information from my personal experience. That's all I can do.

When I no longer "like" it here, I will move on. I am not a missionary and am not out to change the world or the VI. I am registered to vote here and try to select candidates who will make a difference.

Peace.

Jane - I'm a bit confused as to what your actual complaint is by starting this new thread. Your previous posting of these comments was a sidebar to a thread on general information for newbies. Your added comment of "I cannot care any longer - you are on your own" when you re-posted to start this new thread makes it appear that YOUR outrage is that you didn't get the personal reaction you'd hoped for to your original comments asking for outrage about crime. When I read your original post, I saw it as a recap of some of the comments previously posted about crime being the reason you departed the USVI, along with updated statistics for recent criminal acts. I didn't see it as a posting that automatically required or inspired a specific response. It was one more post of many on the topic.

You chose to leave the USVI because you were personally unable to cope with remaining in a place with the crime statistics we have here. Those of us who have remained are presumably coping so far and not living in daily fear that we will be tonight's crime victim. By living our lives as normally as possible and not letting the criminals "win" by either letting them force us to leave the island or lock ourselves in our homes in fear, we can possibly stick around long enough to bring about change over time.

If you just can't bring yourself to care any longer about the USVI or about the people who utilize this website if you aren't given the feedback to your postings that you apparently desire/require, it appears that you are less concerned with the crime rate than in getting positive strokes and being reassured that you're right that crime is the only subject worthy of discussion with new and future residents. Undoubtedly, leaving the island was the right choice for you and your family. I'm sure it wasn't one you reached easily. We all have to make our own choices based on our own needs, perceptions, fears, and frustrations.

I doubt many of us came to the USVI with the goal of changing the political structure and wiping out crime. We have a variety of reasons for moving here and each is valid. It probably didn't even occur to most people to check into the crime statistics before deciding to move here. Few people take up a cause until that specific cause affects their life in some way. (drunk drivers, kidnapped children, muscular dystrophy, AIDS, cancer, etc.) Not everyone chooses to be politically active. Those who do may choose topics other than crime as the focus of their activism. There is no requirement that every new resident take up the cause of eradicating crime by the end of this year. While that would be a lofty goal, it's not realistically one that can be reached overnight by a handful of new arrivals. Discussion is good and can lead people to understand the value in registering to vote so that their voice can be counted with others who feel similarly on the subject. Unfortunately, you alienate more than you win over with the kind of remark you included at the end of your post.

While I agree (and I'm fairly sure that most people anywhere in the country agree) that we'd all like the crime rate to drop, I don't see the value in you getting angry at the people who read and post to this website for them not providing you with the specific response you must have been looking for. Were we all supposed to respond with an, "I'm outraged!"? Followed by 40 more people saying, "Me, too!"? That would take up a lot of website space, but wouldn't solve any problems.

Crime is frequently discussed on this website. So is the availability of groceries. This IS a website specifically devoted to providing information to people relocating to the USVI, after all. It is not a police blotter or a political activism website or a blog site about crime. Crime is not the only subject of interest to potential new residents and it's not the only thing that should be written about here. There are many comments posted to the board each day and they all get a lot of hits, but they don't all get dozens of comments in response. If everyone who posted became furious if they didn't get the type and quantity of responses they personally thought their post (that was so important to them personally) should get, this soon would be a defunct website.

You chose to move to the part of the country I lived in prior to moving to the USVI. I know that there are problems there, just as there are here. Maybe they are problems that don't bother you as much personally as the crime statistics in the USVI. Perhaps if you stay out of the city areas you won't become a crime victim there. I know I lived in rural areas much of my life and still had cars and houses broken into and I was carjacked once in Seattle. When you add in the traffic and the cruddy weather and the crowds, I'm MUCH happier here... and I don't live my life in fear.

Yes, crime happens. Everywhere! But it is true that we can lessen the likelihood that we will become a victim by avoiding the locations and activities that are statistically more likely to put us at risk. This isn't glossing over the problem. It is simply helpful and realistic advice to new arrivals. And we will need LOTS of new arrivals... ones who stay and register to vote and then actually go out and vote... to swell the population sufficiently with the new blood that will be required to effectuate positive and substantive change in the USVI. Helping those new arrivals avoid being a victim long enough that they can be part of a solution has value.

Venting outrage about crime on this website will have negligible effect on the problem. Exchanging information here and educating newcomers might, over time, result in new voters voting as a block to take a stand on the subject. Venting outrage here only blows off steam and would likely leave many people feeling they had done their part and aired their concerns. However, as important a forum as this is for its purpose of helping people gain information useful in a relocation effort, it is NOT a forum that the majority of the population of the USVI reads and heeds on this subject. Your outrage about crime might reach more of the population if you send daily letters to the editors of the local papers and possibly get some of them published.

Jane, I do not mean my post here to be an attack upon you personally and I hope you don't take it that way. I believe you provide a lot of wonderful information on this website. The subject of crime is very important to you as it was a defining factor in why you ultimately left the islands. It isn't the only subject of interest on this website, though, and there aren't always going to be massed voices of agreement with every new posting on the subject. Even when the people reading it generally do agree with your position, most will absorb what you said and then move onto reading the next new post without adding a post of their own on the subject.

For the target audience of this website, discussing the availability of groceries IS every bit as important as discussing crime. There is no question that every new arrival will be immediately impacted by what is and is not available on the store shelves. Most will not be crime victims immediately upon arrival, if ever. We need the practical and lighthearted threads just as much as we need the ones full of doom and gloom. It's the mix of information that keeps people coming back day after day. There is no question that this website has brought about a LOT of positive changes for the people who have used the information they found here in their relocation efforts. Over the long haul, the broad spectrum of information that helps people relocate to the islands will indirectly help to make the positive changes that those people can help bring about as the years go by. It's all about helping.

We need determination more than we need outrage.

alex
if you read yr post - it is a personal attack.
Implying that i care more about having people respond to my post...is a personal attack.
You presume too much - I did not leave the VI because I was personally unable to cope etc...We left due to several very positive reasons - the crime rate in the VI was just one of the factors we usd in our decision making.
I just believe in honesty. I think that the high return to the States of newcomers is not beneficial to the Islands and is a symptom of exactly the 'fudging ' of facts that goes on.
The people who relocate here - especially the baby boomer retirees are not expecting to move to a location with the crime rate of urban Chicago et al.
You and I both know that they are coming there to 'get away from all of that'.
I just feel that the VI is in a very vulnerable place right now.
You are correct tho on one point - this is not the place for initiating change.

Jane - your comment of:
"38 people read my post - and no-one feels that it is more important than "the groceries we miss most".
I cannot care any longer - you are on your own - remember, you always get the government that that you deserve."
came across to me as an attack against every member of this website because there wasn't the string of responses to your post that you apparently expected. You clearly stated that you didn't care anymore because you didn't get any responses even though people read your post. I didn't imply it. You said it.

You have posted numerous times to the effect that you and your family just couldn't take the high crime rate in the islands and had to move elsewhere. I wasn't trying to be presumptuous about crime being a large one of your reasons for leaving when, again, you were the one who has said it over and over.

Most of the people I see departing the USVI come in two primary categories: those who only came for a specific period of time, such as to work a contract at the refinery... and those who came here expecting to live their lives in a 5-star resort on a permanent vacation and then found out that they'd actually have to WORK here to pay the bills. I see far more of both of those categories than I see people leaving due to having been the victim of a crime. Yes, it happens, but it's not even close to being the majority reason I hear. Another sub-category of the "5-start resort" departees would be those who thought that life in Paradise wouldn't have any downsides and that they would leave all their troubles behind in their hometown. Of course, some troubles follow you wherever you go. In a new location, there may be irritants you never thought of even if you do escape from many things that bothered you where you came from. Sometimes you learn to cope with the new irritants and other times you scurry back to those you've had experience dealing with for a lifetime.

The stated reasons people move to the USVI are often that they want to experience better weather and a slower pace of life and less traffic and take walks on the beach. I can't think of one person who has told me they were thinking about moving here because they wanted to get away from a crime wave where they live now and had been led to believe that the USVI would be crime free.

jane: I do not see this very civil discussion as a personal attack, either. I agree that it is a good thing to air views.

I agree with you that the high return rate of stateside folks is not good for the islands. I think this is especially so because the ones who return are often the ones we need- people in health care, education, etc. Because these are people with high standards (coming from a country with the highest standards in the world, IMHO) they are quickly disaffected. If you come here thinking you are going to remake this society into a statesode one, you will be "outta here" soon. If you can find a small garden to cultivate, you may be able to some personal satisfaction.

I don't think anyone here has ever fudged facts- most agree that you should visit before moving, keep a lifeline out in case you want to return. I am always interested in people's expectations.

When you think about it, any location that people from many places move TO as a destination they think will magically make their lives better is also a place that many of those same people flee in time when their expectations are not met. LA/Hollywood and NYC/Broadway would be prime examples. When you move somewhere to chase a dream, you don't always catch what you set out to find. It all comes down to your initial expectations and how flexible you are with revising your game plan as reality kicks in.

If someone moves here expecting to live a permanent vacation and doesn't have the bankroll to fund it, he/she will be disillusioned and may head off to another fabled "Paradise" to try again.

If someone moves here expecting to live in a small town insulated from the real world and without the problems common to the times we live in, they again will be disappointed and may return to the mainland to find the smallest, most innocent backwoods location they can so that they are "safe" from the rest of the world. If they move to a larger town or major city, they undoubtedly face even more potential crime activity than they would here.

But the reality is that most people who depart the USVI go back to wherever they came from initially with a new appreciation for Dorothy's "there's no place like home" mantra. It doesn't mean that their hometown is better or safer or has more opportunities. They couldn't wait to get out of it not so long ago! But home is more familiar and provides a comfort zone that many people seek out when their fantasy comes crashing to a halt.

Those who arrive with more realistic expectations and/or are willing to roll with the punches and make the most of what they actually find rather than getting angry that the islands don't live up to their fantasy are able to live in "Paradise" with some measure of contentment. It's not perfect... but nowhere is.

Alexander,
replying to your comment

"And we will need LOTS of new arrivals... ones who stay and register to vote and then actually go out and vote... to swell the population sufficiently with the new blood that will be required to effectuate positive and substantive change in the USVI. Helping those new arrivals avoid being a victim long enough that they can be part of a solution has value".

As a native Crucian I am offended with this comment. In many ways it reads of modern colonialization or covert racism. It is interesting that some mainlanders who come to the VI have the attitude that they have the solution that will remedy a positive change because the locals just haven't gotten it or otherwise do not know how to get things done the "right way". I believe that crime is everyone's problem native and nonnative alike. It will be more effective to mobilize with the local native population instead of promoting a seperatist attitutude.

Hi Johnnycake.

I too think crime is everyone's problem and I think the vast majority of crime in the VI and the mainland falls into two categories: political corruption and drug related crime. Obviously nobody from the mainland or the VI has any solution to the drug problem or government corruption because drug related crime and government corruption persists in both the states and the islands. Of course, the states are much larger so there are more bureaucratic layers in which to hide government corruption and big cities with large populations in which criminals can easily avoid detection.

You also mention that you think Alexandra's remark about growing the island community in order to effect change smacks of colonization. I can see your point; though she did not actually say that the "new blood" should come from the mainland, it sounded that way to me too. On the other hand, I do think that there is a need for "new blood" because most folks here seem committed to the status quo and the status quo is what keeps the islands poor. I would love to see young islanders facilitate change by criminalizing government corruption and enforcing penalties for those who partake of government corruption but is it reasonable to expect young islanders to turn in friends and family members benefiting from corruption? I'm wondering if the only way we'll ever eliminate government corruption in the VI is through folks without personal ties to the VI because everyone else is part of the problem.

JohnnyCake,
The problem is your response is typical of most locals I engage on this topic. There is a lot of knowledge and skill from the mainland and other parts of the world that sits on the sidelines and does not participate in the government here. Some are afraid to even give an opinion because they will be shot down as an outsider arrogantly telling locals how to run their business.

Look at the problem of the police force for example. For some the idea of bringing in an outsider to help fix it is blasphemy. In the states it is common place to one, have a corrupt police department and two, bring in a new Police Commissioner from another region of America or the world to help fix that police department.

The U.S.V.I. is literally in it's infancy when it comes to self-government. It is only natural that there will be some mistakes and growing pains along the way. A sure sign of maturity however is to have the confidence to ask for help when it is needed.

One of the things I have enjoyed most about living on St. Thomas believe it or not is experiencing life as a minority. It has been a huge eye opener.

Johnnycake - I see your point in the way you interpreted my comment. It wasn't meant to be remotely racist. I am sorry if it came across that way. If you knew my family/genetic background, you would probably not have reached the conclusion that racism was behind what I said. But since you don't know those details about me, I agree that the wording of my comment was unfortunate in what it left the door open to in terms of misinterpretation of intent/motivation.

New blood, no matter what color the skin encompassing it or the national borders it was born within, can often shake things up and disrupt the status quo. In terms of crime in the islands, something needs to happen to put some teeth into the laws that would provide a deterrant against the crime rate continuing to rise. And just because someone was not born on the island and/or has paler skin than many of those who were born here doesn't mean they can't have any good ideas about things that might help! Holding strongly to that belief is another type of racism.

There have been so many threads that discussed that things aren't going to change in the islands because of nepotism or because of family and friends turning a blind eye to crime and corruption if they know someone who benefits. Rallying newcomers who are upset about this seems to be one positive step to take to raise a voice against this problem. And it is a problem that I know many natives aren't happy about, either.

If only a few new residents who came from elsewhere speak up to complain about the situation, nobody will listen. If there are enough voices speaking the same message, then maybe... just maybe... a few lifelong residents will begin to listen, and possibly agree, and speak up as well. It would be those people who then might have a greater likelihood of making inroads in the native population to foment a change. These things all take time. I don't think that there is a whole lot that newcomers should make any attempt to change about the islands. I do think that the crime situation is something that everyone should work to change. There are a lot of good people living here and some of them do speak up and take a stand. So far, it just hasn't been enough.

It will take new arrivals and lifelong residents speaking up together to say it isn't OK for the police to ignore criminal activity and refuse to investigate it or to fail to make an arrest of a known transgressor due to whom he is related. I don't believe that ALL native Crucians are okay with what seems to be a significant percentage of the police being ineffective, incompetent or corrupt, whichever the case may be, or for the political machine to also harbor corruption. I do believe that SOME locals accept and encourage this, though. I don't think it's because natives don't "get it". But I do think that family pressure can cause people to turn a blind eye, even when they don't feel what's happening is right. Finding a way to overcome peer pressure is hard enough in non-relative situations. What is happening here with such complex, family relationships being the norm instead of a rarity is just that much harder to overcome. Sometimes it is hard to see something clearly when you are too close to the problem yourself and sometimes you make excuses for others even when you don't really believe what they are doing is right. As the story goes, it just might take a little boy to speak up and catch everyone's attention by shouting that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

One person committed to doing wrong can drag a lot of people down with him/her before they realize what is really happening. Then it sometimes seems like there's no way out of the situation and they don't know how to take a stand and undo the damage. Other people bury their heads in the sand and hope someone else deals with it. It is a lot harder to take action to do the right thing than to sit back and watch things fall apart while you wonder when someone else is going to do something about it. Once a problem grows large enough to notice, it is often too large to find an easy solution to repair. This one certainly isn't going to be an easy fix!

aha - intelligent heartfelt debate! Good.

A huge unspoken truth is that money buys property and seclusion on the East End of St X and many of the white newcomers from the states tend to segregate themselves beyond Schooner Bay Market and quite frankly only give a damn about the violence and poverty when it shows up in their East End neighborhood.

"Only in the ghetto" crime is acceptable - "the locals" battling out their drug turf wars, it is definitely a case of "them" and us.
A huge number of stateside relocators do not involve themselves in VI politics because quite frankly , their money buys them insulation from the sadder and more desperate woes of the Island.

The poverty and conditions among many of the island population is desperate - without Chris Finch and the Lutheran Social Services it would be even worse.
Having been in the Real Estate game for the last 5 yrs, I have seen a lot of overt and covert racism .
A distinctly patronizing atmosphere exists among many statesiders -
a definite desire to make the VI toe the US line.

Many of the "locals" are becoming angry - this is not a good situation for the beautiful, priceless Islands.

Jane,

I applaud you for speaking the truth to this issue. I think that you are brave to talk about things that people do not want to hear. The racial tension on St. John over the past few years is a clearer picture of the kind of local anger that your are talking about.

I am glad that you cut through the illusion and hypocracy that can sometimes prevade this board regarding these issues.

jane,

"A huge unspoken truth is that money buys property and seclusion on the East End of St X and many of the white newcomers from the states tend to segregate themselves beyond Schooner Bay Market and quite frankly only give a damn about the violence and poverty when it shows up in their East End neighborhood."

Money has always made it possible for the haves to ignore the problems of the have-nots. This is true in the VI, in the states and around the world.

"Only in the ghetto" crime is acceptable - "the locals" battling out their drug turf wars, it is definitely a case of "them" and us."

I think that everywhere it's a case of the illicit drug industry versus everyone else.

"A huge number of stateside relocators do not involve themselves in VI politics because quite frankly, their money buys them insulation from the sadder and more desperate woes of the Island."

Voter apathy is a problem but no more so in the territory than in any state.

"The poverty and conditions among many of the island population is desperate - without Chris Finch and the Lutheran Social Services it would be even worse.
Having been in the Real Estate game for the last 5 yrs, I have seen a lot of overt and covert racism."

Racism is a global problem; Israelis and Palestinians, Rwandan Tutsis and Hutus, Shiites persecuted by Sunnis, Bosnians killing Croats, Serbs slaughtering Albania Kosovars. There is also racism in the VI but far less so than most places on the planet.

"A distinctly patronizing atmosphere exists among many statesiders -
a definite desire to make the VI toe the US line."

In my experience folks from the states would like the VI government to run more efficiently and more effectively and to be equitable for all but most mainlanders aren't especially impressed with the "U.S. line" governmentally speaking and thus they have no desire to see the VI government become more like the Federal government.

"Many of the "locals" are becoming angry - this is not a good situation for the beautiful, priceless Islands."

To be poor among wealthy makes the poor understandably angry. As in the states, there has been income disparity in the VI for many, many years and the anger of which you speak is nothing new and happens in all free market economies. Eliminating poverty will virtually eliminate the anger; everyone won't be wealthy but when nobody lacks food, housing, employment, and hope for the future of their children most will be content. To eliminate poverty attitudes about drugs and corruption must change. Many of the benefits of these systematic changes can take generations to come to fruition and so are difficult to sustain.

In my opinion, there's room for improvement but life in the USVI is good!

for you maybe..perhaps not for the majority of its population

"for you maybe..perhaps not for the majority of its population"

Perhaps everyone in the territory but me is miserable but since neither of us is qualified to speak about the quality of life of life for "the majority" of islanders I can only say that I am happy to be here.