att. Carter & Jaybird

Islander,

Sure, I'd love to. A lot of my perceptions are colored by living here for 10 years, and seeing the changes the islands have gone through, just like everywhere, I guess. There are still a lot of petty inconveniences, and silly things that happen, so the most important thing in living here is to not have things important to you be hard on you. If you are the kind of person who decides BEFORE going into the supermarket what you are going to buy, and will be unhappy if it is out of stock, this isn't the place for you - even now. Also, remember that despite the homogenization of culture brought about (in my humble opinion) by TV and a lot of other pop culture, this is still a different culture. Learn how the locals do things - say "good morning" and "good evening" and ask how they are doing. Yes, some will still be rude to you - perhaps they've had more tourists be rude to them than they can handle? It is like swimming against the ocean - you are in the islander's society and fighting it is just going to tire you out rather than be successful in changing it.

Okay - baby is sleeping and here's my 2-cents:

Living here (STT) was definitely hard for me. I met with a lot of locals' ignorances and I really missed the "comforts" of home, like more than 5 minutes of hot water for showering and dependable electricity. But I'm not going to island-bash because I knew things were going to be different when my husband and I decided to move here. My husband didn't have the same kinds of experiences as I did because he mostly worked with tourists. My days were usually filled with running errands and doing things around the island that involved close interaction with locals (i.e. doing laundry, grocery shopping, car registration, etc.). In my experience, I found that a large portion of the "local male" population - approxiamately 80-90% - had pre-conceived notions about me and expectations about my behavior, based solely on the fact that I was a transplant. Please keep in mind that I am an almost 30-year-old African American woman - so this was not racial or some kind of "elder-respect" thing. Anyway- I ended up feeling really isolated from my environment and only because of several key friends did I even last this long. I do not however blame this island or any of it's residents for my negative experiences. The Virgin Islands are going to be whatever you make of them. If you are unhappy where you are and you move here - your still going to be unhappy. I realized this in my last few months here and I decided to choose happiness. For me, that involves a masters degree, beautiful SF Bay views, international dining (i.e. indian,thai,ethiopian-yum!), and a steaming bubble bath. What does it mean for you?

Thank you Jaybird.

Regarding what you said about pre-conceived notions about you & your behavior. Could you explain; an example perhaps? I find that interesting. Did you feel any 'outsider sentiments' from the local women?

--Islander

Hmm, an example... well most recently I was at the truck outside of the DMV getting some pate's for me and my husband. He was in the car with the baby across the street in the Pueblo parking lot and I was just running over to get the food. I know the lady who works at the truck and we chatted a little. Then this guy walks up to the truck and speaks to the older lady that works at the truck also(she may be the owner but I don't know her). He was speaking in the native language (not just fast slang but in that language that doesn't have a name - or at least I've never heard anyone call it anything). I did not say anything to the guy or even look at him until I heard the older woman say to him, "...don't talk about her (referring to me) that's her friend(referring to the woman that I know who works there). At that, I got more interested in their conversation and I turned and looked at the guy. He proceeded to give me a look that I can only describe as disgust. Anyway, he said something else to the lady that I interpreted as "whatever" and walked off. Now while this whole exchange was going on - another guy walked up. He did not enter the conversation but was close enough to hear the whole thing and after the first guy left, he walked up to the counter and began to order. He paused during his order and turned to me and said "oh, did you order yet" to not be skipping me if I hadn't and I replied "yes, I already ordered, but thank you for asking". The second guy turned to the older woman who was working there and said, "well at least she has manners" and the older lady said "no she fine, she her friend, that guy didn't know what he was talking about".

Now I can't tell you what the first guy said because I didn't understand it. And I know that this "example" could possibly be explained away with some very reasonable explanation. But to my instincts, feelings and psyche that man was talking about me and there was no other reason for him to do that except that I was a "non-local". Both guys were locals or at least West Indian and not only did the first guy have a negative pre-conceived notion about me but the second was readily willing to believe it based on whatever the first guy said.

As for local woman, when we moved here I was pregnant. I found that most local women were very accepting of me in my pregnant state (local men were too). After I had my son, if he was with me, I was still received very favorably. People were quick to help me and I got thru lines very quickly - things like that. But if I was alone I was treated just like everyone else. I never really had any problems with the local women though (in general). But like I said I am an African-American woman with locs - so maybe that got me a foot in the door and my personality is fairly amiable so that got me in. Overall I would say that I was not judged negatively because I was a "non-local" by local women.

I hope that helps...and wasn't too long a post - lol.

JayBird,
are both you and your husband African-American?

OK, so what's the difference between "fast slang" and that "native language". As a native Virgin Islander, I'm confused. The only different ways that most locals speak here is either a) proper English with an accent or b) the Virgin Islands dialect which is more broken English. Of course you'll find a few who speak in an American accent (especially if they lived on the mainland for a while), but I'm just confused what exactly you mean by the difference between "fast slang" and "native language."

On St. Croix, some residents choose to use a combination of broken English, slang, and partial syllables spoken with a lazy tongue that does not complete the words, which are half swallowed in the back of the throat. These same individuals can usually... but not always... speak clearly if they choose to (although they often don't). I've taken to calling it "Cruzan Mumble Talk", as that pretty accurately describes the effect.

I have not encountered this particular "dialect" on more than 20 other islands I've visited. Undoubtedly there are other islands out there where similar speech patterns occur, but I have become quite aware of this one since I live on St. Croix.

In an adult who voluntarily chooses to speak unintelligibly to others, sometimes as a way to protest the presence of someone with light colored skin, I have no argument. They are free to do what they choose to do, although I do wish they could get past their own prejudices in the situations where they exist.

When I see/hear a small child speaking this way and it becomes apparent that the child really doesn't know how to speak clearly even if he wants to, I am more concerned. I find it to be unfortunate for the child that what they can do in their future may be limited due to not having the tools necessary to make their way in the world off-island should they want to go that route once they are grown.

LOL.........Alexandra, funny! That is by far, THE BEST explanation i have ever heard, and about as PERFECT as possible. My brother-in-law is an example...he flaps his jaw so damn fast, then after i say "what?" 2-3 times, he slows down and pronounces the words perfectly...THAT IS SO FUNNY!!! LOL!!!!!!

Very good description of the dialect, however, you said:

"In an adult who voluntarily chooses to speak unintelligibly to others, sometimes as a way to protest the presence of someone with light colored skin, I have no argument."

"Sometimes" is a key word here. I have a dear Crucian friend who speaks in this "native tongue" to his family and some friends on the island. He is a native and I'm clearly not (as evidenced by my lilly white or often sunburned skin), however, when he speaks this Cruzan Mumble Talk around me, it is not in protest of my presence, but only because the people to whom he is speaking cannot speak or understand clear English. They are the children of yesteryears that did not learn to pronounce English words in the way that we did.

I must agree, though, that children won't have much chance of a future off the island unless they learn to speak clearly. I'm so frustrated with the teens we hire who can't hold a conversation with me because of this. In fact, I won't hire them on this, their native island, anymore.

Bou'ya, I have to disagree with you. Most people on St. Croix can, in fact, speak proper English. They just don't choose to. Most people who study and work on the mainland can switch back and forth depending on where they're at, as well. For example, I speak a LOT differently on St. Croix than how I speak when I'm in college on the mainland.

Also, I find it absolutely ridiculous that you would think that we cannot understand "clear English." How do you expect us to watch mainstream TV and movies if we can't understand "clear English" ? How would we communicate with statesiders? That statement is so naive and ludicrous. I find your statement that you won't hire us on "[our] native island, anymore" offensive. How dare you disrespect us just because we don't choose to speak proper English on our own island. Why don't you just pack up and go someplace where the people talk exactly like you and, in the process, miss out on a true cultural experience.

DL,

I did not find Bou'ya's statement, "naive...ludicrous...[or] offensive.

Bou'ya said, "I'm so frustrated with the teens we hire who can't hold a conversation with me because of this ["Cruzan Mumble Talk"]. In fact, I won't hire them on this, their native island, anymore."

You, DL, said, "I find your statement that you won't hire us on "[our] native island, anymore" offensive. How dare you disrespect us just because we don't choose to speak proper English on our own island."

You contend that because islanders watch television they are able to converse in standard English when they so choose. If Bou'ya has had experiences with local teens who are able to speak to their employer, Bou'ya, in standard "television" English and yet choose not to do so then it seems reasonable to me that Bou'ya decline to employ them. Disrespectful employees are not entitled to employment. What is unfortunate is that the rude behavior of some island teens has eliminated potential employment opportunities with Bou'ya, and no doubt other employers, for other island teens. Bou'ya was only describing workplace problems S/He has experienced and never suggested "Cruzan Mumble Talk" was inappropriate outside of the workplace.

First off, I didn't say they could converse in English because they watch a lot of movies and TV. I said that them watching TV and movies shows that they could UNDERSTAND proper English. And they can also SPEAK proper English because of a basic education. Also, when you say "direspectful employees are not entitled to employement", why must you equate speaking our local dialect with rudeness. Why the negative connotations placed on our dialect? If we have knowledge of proper English so that we can use it on the mainland, why can't we use it on the island as we please? Why the hate on our way of speaking?

whahh gwaannn? de likkle yutes caannn speak proppa english if dey waan too if ya don like me language...leave me island!

in all seriousness...they can speak properly--but often choose not to as they are more comfortable speaking in their native tongue (dialect). if you choose not to hire the locals based on this fact, that of course is one's decision~personally, I would try to learn it~it could be fun. but then once again it seems as if people who come to the island try to change the place into something else. i hope to goodness that the locals keep their dialect and their way of life..even to the chagrin & frustration of others (including myself at times).

The last time I was there, I was hangin with Simpson, on StX. He took me out for a day of touring the local spots. Of course on Stx, the local spots have an assortment of locals and tourists. That man could switch from your "cruzan mumble talk" to proper English as he choose to do in the given situation. I conversed in
"cruzan mumbo talk" to a white mainlander for an hour and held up my end of the deal quite well -to Simpsons' amazement! I was proud of the fact he bragged I'd do all right with his 'buddies'.
Although my dad thought I was delirous. (Ha Ha Just wait hehehhheee). Lighten up people. Do you really go to the islands and look down on people for the way they speak, annunciate and express themselves?

DL,

You ask, "..when you say "direspectful employees are not entitled to employment", why must you equate speaking our local dialect with rudeness. Why the negative connotations placed on our dialect? If we have knowledge of proper English so that we can use it on the mainland, why can't we use it on the island as we please? Why the hate on our way of speaking?"

Your reference to "hate" is intended to encite an argument and does not merit acknowledgment beyond the fact that it is your word, not mine.

As a speaker of several languages I was taught as a child that it is considered rude to speak a language/dialect when you are around people who do not understand that language/dialect because you are excluding those unfamiliar with the language/dialect from the conversation and those excluded are made to feel uncomfortable, as if people are talking about them behind their back. The exception, of course, is if you are unable to converse in a language/dialect that the people around you can understand.

You have stated that formal education and television have made it possible for islanders to understand and converse in standard English but that choosing to speak to their employer in a dialect unfamiliar to their employer in an employment setting is not rude but rather entirely reasonable because islanders should be able to speak on island as they please. You contend that standard English is for the "mainland" and "Cruzan Mumble Talk" is for the island and that may well be the case for many but not for those who desire employment by Bou'ya or other employers who do not understand "Cruzan Mumble Talk." You seem unwilling to believe that employment is something you earn, through education and sacrifice, and employment usually requires one to conform to the standards of one's workplace environment which, in Bou'ya's case, means speaking to him in a manner he can understand. If your workplace does not deem "Cruzan Mumble Talk" appropriate then you can choose to speak standard English while at work or find a workplace that will permit you to speak in the manner you wish to speak or spend your days sitting outside the grocery store mumbling the day away with others who enjoy the practice. Your life, your choice.

Hello Jaybird,

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I can only think of one reason - did you say Good Afternoon or Morning to him. If you didn't greet him he likely thought you were rude and proceeded to state such to the other lady and continue on by saying people like you or something like that. Particularly since you mentioned the other guy said something about having manners. And also because I have had that same scenario happen to me, except I can understand the accent/Creole/dialect (but to many I don't look like I would).

In any case there are some preconceived notions like you mentioned. You know, one's that start with 'those people' or rather 'dem people'. Some are negative, some silly, some down right stupid. I have actually found the women are the ones that harbor many of these notions. That is why I asked what you thought about the women. Interesting stuff.

I appreciate your responses to my questions 🙂 and wish you all the best.

--Islander

Hello "HMMMMMMMM.....",

I am Curious, why did you ask what race Jaybird's husband is?

--Islander

Just wondering if it had anything to do with being an inter-racial couple. but after re-reading the post she stated her husband was across the street in the car, so it does not seem like it would have been a factor.

As I have read this thread I have been amused, intrigued, but most of all I have been offended. Like DL, I happen to be a "native born" person who possesses the complete capicity to speak in both my "native" tongue, as well as Standard American English. I found it quite interesting that Alexandra Marshall had the nerve and the audacity to talk of people getting over their own prejudices when dealing with others, while failing to recognize that her own post was riddled with its own prejudices.

For the record let me state the following, there is no such thing as proper English unless of course you speak the Queen's English, and I have a sneaking suspicion that most of you are not British. Even so, among the British there are varying tongues, dialects, and accents as you move from town to country, district to district, etc., this is a distinction that becomes evident wherever you go, not something limited to those of us who happen to speak "Cruzan Mumble Talk" (Since there isn't an emoticon for it, let me tell you that I am now rolling my eyes). Furthermore, even within the United States you will encounter varying accents, tongues, dialects, as you move across the country. I have encountered Bostonians, Brooklynites, and Southerners who I couldn't understand because they were speaking in their own "native" tongues. Would any of you go to Boston and tell them not to speak in a way that is comfortable to them, just to please you?

Alexandra Marshall you appear to be an intelligent woman, but pray tell me why you would expect everyone from the "20 other islands visited" to sound the same as Crucians. You are aware that all the Caribbean islands have a unique history that takes into account former colonizers, as well as former tribal affiliations that would contribute to different sounding people? Also, I find your statement even more ridiculous, given that a large portion of people that reside in the Virgin Islands hail from varying countries in the Eastern Caribbean, again contributing to a unique sound.

@thinkinoutloud - I am going to ask that you please clarify your statement regarding disrespectful employees and dialect. What does one have to do with the other? Are you suggesting that because someone speaks in their own language, in their own country in front of you - a person that cannot understand the language - that said individual is being disrespectful? Having read this board for several years, let me say the following if you visited the Virgin Islands and decided to move here, it is now your responsibility to understand we the local people and that pertains to our positives and negatives, and most importantly relates to our culture and customs (read: our language). Were you not aware before moving here that by and large people do NOT speak Standard English? Did you think that you would move here and then suddenly everyone would speak "properly" for you? Sorry love, it doesn't work that way. Most of us, as VI people are well aware of this and adjust ourselves accordingly when we choose to relocate elsewhere, I suggest you all do the same.

@DL - Good job. Good job.

Ha,

You asked me to clarify my statement regarding disrespectful employees and dialect and I don't see how I can be more clear. Bou'ya posted that he has employed island teens who can't/won't speak to him, their English speaking employer, in a manner that he can understand. DL contends that those teens are capable of speaking English in a manner that their employer can understand and opt not to do so. DL, and apparently you, think this acceptable behavior for an employee toward an employer and I do not.

Furthermore, I am not "suggesting" but stating emphatically that language is often used on island to exclude people and that using language for this purpose is rude. In Jaybirds "example" island dialect was used expressly to keep her from knowing what was being said about her, indicating that the speaker knew what he was saying about her was nasty which was obviously confirmed by the remarks of pate truck employees supporting her.

As to transplants having a "responsibility to understand we the local people" this can only occur if "the local people" wish to be understood. I have heard many transplants indicate a desire to learn the island dialect but I have never heard of an islander willing to teach them.

Lastly, you know nothing about me and are erroneous in your assumption that only a transplant to the VI could deem the behavior of Bou'ya's employees to their employer or Jaybird's experience at the pate truck as rudeness.

I have always been interested in languages, I can speak some Spanish & very little german. So I find this discussion very interesting. I hope it can be kept civil so it can continue & I can learn more. You all have made good points! Also, maybe this seems obvious but just to make it clear to people reading this that haven't yet travelled to the VI all the islands in El Caribe have their own accent/dialect or language. Like as mentioned by HA about different parts of the US. I can't understand some of the people just across the border in the next state. But I think we'd lose a bit if every one sounded like the TV weatherman. Not that there's anything wrong with that! 🙂

JW

Hello,

DL – Bou’ya never said that the majority of people on St. Croix couldn’t speak English. And she never said the residents in general can not understand clear English. Yet you accused her of making both statements and in doing such created a debate about the validity of our dialect – something that was never being questioned.

Ha - Alexandra gave her interpretation of ‘Crucian dialect’. Maybe mumbled is what it sounds like to her? I don’t see how that is prejudicial.

I agree with both Alexandra’s statement that some speak dialect in protest and with Bou’ya that a few of the older folks don’t understand American English.

I have encountered situations were people made comments, sometimes nasty ones, in dialect or creole assuming I couldn’t understand it. Sometimes I let it go and sometimes I answer them back. And it has always disgusted me that when I answer them back many times their reply is, ‘oh you from here’ with a grin. Disgusted because, what difference does it make? I hadn’t said or done anything to the person and what if I was a statesider - would it have been ok then to make the comments? But since I am a Virgin Islander we are cool now and nothing was meant by the comments.

And the comment about people not understaning American English. Bou’ya clearly stated that it is people from yesteryears she was refering to. And this is correct, there is definitely an edcuational gap between the younger generations and the older ones. On a few occasions, not many, I have had to transition to dialect when speaking to older people, say 70+ because I was getting a blank stare when I spoke American English.

Regarding TV watching as a sign of knowing a language. Knowing a language includes writing, reading/comprehension & speaking.

When I attended UVI I had professors in the Humanities Department tell me that many of our highschool graduates could not pass the university entrance exam, that they had to take English and writing skills classes before being allowed to take regular classes for credits. Additionally I remember Professor Turnbull (before becoming govenor), in History class giving a talk to students about using English. Saying that it was the appropriate choice in his and any college classroom and to save the dialect for casual conversation with friends. He stated this because students were answering him in class in dialect.

I consider Bouya’s statement constructive critism. Bou’ya is a business person stating that she has had problems with the English the teens she hires uses, with communicating with them. This is critical.

DL & Ha, would you have felt offended and jumped on Professor Turnbull for correcting students and requesting they speak English in his and other classrooms. He, like Bou’ya said nothing of the dialect in way of dismissing it but rather emphasized that there are times when it is and is not appropriate to speak it.

We are in the USVI where the official language is English... not Virgin Islands English Creole or VI English Dialect. Our gradeschool children in the Virgin Islands need to be taught that our dialect is ours, how it developed and to keep it, be proud of it and our culture in general. But also that the official lanugage is English and that businesses/employment, schools, universities, interviews require the ability to speak, write, read and understand it well and to know when it is appropriate to use each.

I really think this discussion was taken completely out of context, but I also understand why it was.

JimW – there is a nice section on Language in the VI (history of language & Virgin Islands English Creole) on our sister site. You might enjoy reading it. http://www.vinow.com/general_usvi/culture/language.php

--Islander

Wow! Look what happens when I turn my back for a few moments! People go to war over language!!! The soap box neareth!!!

There is a wonderful book by Peter A. Roberts called "West Indians and their language" (Cambridge University Press, 1988) for anyone really interested in the subject.

1. There are many language varieties in the Caribbean, and many English varieties: British English, Standard American English, Creole English (the term Roberts prefers to English Creole), Rastafarian English, etc.

2. Creole languages are a result of contact between two language groups and are usually a stage in the evolution of language. However, there are social forces in the Caribbean which have helped to preserve the Creole.

3. Creole English is *not* "Mumbo language", "broken English" nor "lazy tongue." It is a variety of English with rules of grammar, sounds and word meaning that are different from other varieties of English.
* sidebar- "Who you is?" is an accepted grammatic form. The sound substitution of "t" for "th" is an accepted phonological or sound form. The use of the word "foot" for all parts of the lower extremity is an accepted semantic or word form.

4. Creole English has many different varieties; formal and informal, educated and less educated, the accent of different islands ( a "w" for "v" substitution gives away the identity of those from Tortola.)

5. IMHO, when the language in the home is Creole English, children do need to learn standard English. It is the language of most written material in English, and one must understand the spoken form of a language before the written. I believe it should be taught as a second language, not as a "better", more "proper" way of speaking. When someone is bilingual, they have the flexibility of code switching-that is, using the language or form of language most appropriate to the situation. Some Caribbean people are only competent in their home language and are unable to code switch, others are competent, but for various reasons do not wish to code switch. (I use the term "competence" in the linguistic sense.) If teachers would see language as a tool instead of a political weapon, there would be less roogoodoo me son.

Whew! Back off the soap box!

In the interests of keeping this discussion "civil," I will try to respond in a calm manner.

@thinkinoutloud - Clarification goes a long way. However, I still stand by my statements that a person who chooses to move here, does so at the risk of being excluded in something as common as everyday conversation. A simple fact of a life is that when you move to someone's country, neighborhood, area you adjust yourself to the people that were there before you. No one is going to accomodate themselves to you, sorry but that's just the way it is. Now, in Bouya's situation you said that his employees won't speak to him in "proper" English, the sad fact of the matter is that by even suggesting to people that they speak "properly" comes off condescending at best, and as an insult at its worst. One of the biggest mistakes people make when moving here is thinking that the local populace is going to make changes to make your stay more enjoyable, the trouble is once you move here you are no longer a tourist (and even good treatment is negotiable there), but a resident (and trust me when I say that all of us who live here or was born here.

What I'm trying to get at here is that the "islands" are not the only place that people exclude others based on language, why you thought otherwise is beyond me. If you want, you can consider the whole language "barrier" thing a hazing ritual, if you live here long enough to understand, good, if not, you're on your own. Just don't go around talking about people mumbling, and calling it "improper" because you can't understand it.

As for the pate truck experience, I chose to leave that one alone because I saw it for what it was (and for the record I could see where Jaybird was coming from), but in your initial post you weren't commenting on that were you? So please don't go there.

And the idea that local people won't teach you the dialect, it works like this, we are speaking English, if you listen carefully you'll understand. Stop being fascinated by the accent (something that many North Americans are famous for doing) and in time you'll be able to understand, and dare I say it mimic what is being said. Understand this, we are not speaking a foreign language (even though it sounds that way to you) so we see no need to teach you how to speak anything. You'd be surprised at how many of us "Cruzan Mumble Talkers" can "yank" because we have learned to listen, and not be fascinated by another variation of English.

Finally, I was not presuming to know you, nor was I suggesting that only a transplant could deem the situation rude (where you read that is beyond me). I've seen many variations on this same issue and I was merely telling you that coming to another person’s home (country, neighborhood, whatever) and telling them how to act (read: speak) could be considered rude on your part. See how that works both ways.

So in closing let me say this, I was not attacking anyone who chooses to identify themselves as a continental, so much so as I was attacking the notion that our native tongue is inferior (think about the talks of what is "proper" and what is not) and that anyone who does not wish to speak Standard American English in a place that is NOT the continental United States has to do so to be employed. Let it suffice to say that if we were in the continental US or even Alaska or Hawaii for that matter, I wouldn't even be having this disagreement with you, because I would agree. Different house, different rules.