Ariona Law

How does one prove they are here legally according to the Arizona law? If I were stopped downtown and asked to prove I was here legally, I couldn't do it. I'd have to come home and get either my passport or my birth certificate. Just wondering.

OK, so I changed my mind, just one more post on this issue.

Ric, you make a very good point. If it were possible to remove the emotionally charged rhetoric from this discussion we might be able to find some areas of agreement.

Point one is that most everyone agrees that 'we' have a major problem with unrestrained illegal immigration.

Point two is that the federal government has not been proactive in solving the problem. I laughed today when on national TV both sides of this issue blamed President Obama for not finding a fast and agreeable solution. The Mexican protesters said he hasn't acted fast enough, the 'it's illegal' protesters said he should act faster. Well folks, this is not a new problem and I think President Obama is our only real hope at a reasonable solution. This problem goes back decades. Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton and Bush decided to turn their collective backs. We are very lucky to have President Obama in Washington. He might be able to cut through the babble and make things better. He is the best thing that has happened to this country in half a century.

In California and the southwestern states (Arizona, New Mexico...even Texas) things have changed. The land that the US claimed from Mexico in an illegal war is being reclaimed by a steady stream of legal and illegal Mexican immigrants. I can understand how scary this is to the Arizona retirees from middle America. Hey.. it's scary to me. A strong and punitive immigration policy can slow this 'retaking' of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas even California. But is that how America got to be so great?

.......are we willing to surrender many of our own civil rights protections to make this happen? It is obvious that it will take a major change in how we live if we are to allow the police to question someone based on how they 'look'. To me, that is the bottom line problem.

While I do not agree with this law, I hope that it forces the federal government to find a better solution.

if you look at the law you will see that it is the same as the fedral law that is not being enfored by feds the state can not enfores a fed law so they past the same law under state law that they can enforece

have you looked at az gov. 65% aproval rate think az people must like the law and it is there state

This is a little off topic but...last month we were visiting my sister and brother-in-law in Florida. My brother-in-law is a firm believer that just about any problem in the United States can somehow be linked to illegal immigration. While we were there one of his cousins, who is big into genealogy, came by to visit. He had been to a family reunion in Holland a few weeks earlier and said that he had learned that their grandfather had snuck into the US illegally as a young adult. Needless to say, my brother-in-law was shocked to learn that he was descended from an illegal alien. Of course, that fact will have absolutely no effect on his core beliefs because as he uses the term, "illegal alien" is really just a politically correct code word for Hispanics. IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER!!!! Please note that I said that that the term "illegal alien" is my brother-in-laws code word for Hispanics and not necessarily what is meant by others when they use the term.

How does one prove they are here legally according to the Arizona law? If I were stopped downtown and asked to prove I was here legally, I couldn't do it. I'd have to come home and get either my passport or my birth certificate. Just wondering.

A driver license or State ID will suffice. If you have a green card, or a passport with a temporary visa, current law already requires you to carry it with you at all times in the U.S.

George Will has some thoughts on Arizona's new law, including:

"...Some critics say Arizona's law is unconstitutional because the 14th Amendment's guarantee of "equal protection of the laws" prevents the government from taking action on the basis of race. Liberals, however, cannot comfortably make this argument because they support racial set-asides in government contracting, racial preferences in college admissions, racial gerrymandering of legislative districts and other aspects of a racial spoils system. Although liberals are appalled by racial profiling, some seem to think vocational profiling (police officers are insensitive incompetents) is merely intellectual efficiency, as is state profiling (Arizonans are xenophobic)..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042702741.html

This whole problem is easily solved if it is broken down into the two main issues: Closing the border and dealing with the illegal aliens.

We should first close the border. It can and should be done even if it means deploying the military for a while. The flow of illegal immigration needs to be brought to a halt. Once we have done that, then we can figure out what to do with all those who snuck in here illegally, whether from Holland or Mexico or China. Illegals should have to pay a fine and submit to a background check. Then they should be given a temporary work visa. If the background check comes back clean and the fine is paid, they should be allowed to stay and work towards citizenship. If not, they need to be sent back home. This is not a hard problem to solve!

arizona is dealing with the fact that the federal government is not doing its job.

if i am at a business meeting with a client, taking my child out for ice cream, or just sitting on a park bench relaxing my spirit, i would not take too kindly to a policeman deciding that i look illegal and questioning me.

so we deal with the symptom instead of the problem and legal residents of arizona and the united states of america will be affected. illegals tend to try to stay out of plain sight, and now i believe this will be moreso. so all the "illegal-looking" people will now be subject to this new law.

press your representatives to stay on track with immigration reform and sealing the borders... and also the major corporations (whom i shall not name but we know who they are) who grow fat off the labor of illegal immigrants. meat packing plants, sharecropping, department stores... all contribute to the encouragement to get here by any means necessary.

and the law-abiding citizen who is right in all of our faces can be questioned for his or her id. how many times - do they get a little document to display after x amount of stops??? after a while, i am sure it can be embarrassing, inconvenient and even demoralizing.

From a email I just received:

This teacher is truly a genius!
>
>
>
>As the late Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
>
>An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class.
>That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
>The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".
>All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.
>After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
>The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.
>As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
>When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
>The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
>All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
>
>Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on)
>
>Remember, there is a mid-term election in 2010!

From a email I just received:

This teacher is truly a genius!
>
>
>
>As the late Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
>
>An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class.
>That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
>The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".
>All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.
>After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
>The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.
>As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
>When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
>The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
>All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
>
>Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on)
>
>Remember, there is a mid-term election in 2010!

You have been drinking way too much 'cool-aid". Your comments have nothing to do with reality. Sounds like you are overdosing on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. You ain't paying attention if you think that the current administration is doing anything to encourage'socialism'. I wish they would do a lot more....but that is another thing entirely.

If socialism is scary to you, then keep listening because the right wing hate talkers seem to think that the ignorant will be taken in.

i think it's hilarious that people actually think that barack hussein obama, who made his millions and did not have them handed to him through a legacy, would even think about not rewarding hard work and persistence.

he certainly did not become president for the salary, as he could make more than that on the talk/book/lecture circuit. to think that there are hollywood starlets who are paid to simply show up at parties and openings and the president of the united states is called a socialist because he wants people not to die in the streets for lack of affordable health care. i said affordable, not free. free health care is here already. don't get it twisted.

thimk (sic)

From an AZ senator who voted foe this bill!

I'm Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen. I want to explain SB 1070 which I
voted for and was just signed by Governor Jan Brewer.
Rancher Rob Krantz was murdered by the drug cartel on his ranch a month ago.
I participated in a senate hearing two weeks ago on the border violence,
here is just some of the highlights from those who testified.

The people who live within 60 to 80 miles of the Arizona/Mexico Border have
for years been terrorized and have pleaded for help to stop the daily
invasion of humans who cross their property . One Rancher testified that 300
to 1200 people a DAY come across his ranch vandalizing his property,
stealing his vehicles and property, cutting down his fences, and leaving
trash. In the last two years he has found 17 dead bodies and two Koran
bibles.

Another rancher testified that daily drugs are brought across his ranch in a
military operation. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, 1/2 mile
behind are the guards fully armed, 1/2 mile behind them are the drugs,
behind the drugs 1/2 mile are more guards. These people are violent and they
will kill anyone who gets in the way. This was not the only rancher we heard
that day that talked about the drug trains.

One man told of two illegal's who came upon his property one shot in the
back and the other in the arm by the drug runners who had forced them to
carry the drugs and then shot them. Daily they listen to gun fire during the
night it is not safe to leave his family alone on the ranch and they can't
leave the ranch for fear of nothing being left when they come back.

The border patrol is not on the border. They have set up 60 miles away with
check points that do nothing to stop the invasion. They are not allowed to
use force in stopping anyone who is entering. They run around chasing them,
if they get their hands on them then they can take them back across the
border.

Federal prisons have over 35% illegal's and 20% of Arizona prisons are
filled with illegal's. In the last few years 80% of our law enforcement that
have been killed or wounded have been by an illegal.

The majority of people coming now are people we need to be worried about.
The ranchers told us that they have seen a change in the people coming they
are not just those who are looking for work and a better life.

The Federal Government has refused for years to do anything to help the
border states. We have been over run and once they are here we have the
burden of funding state services that they use. Education cost have been
over a billion dollars. The healthcare cost billions of dollars. Our State
is broke, $3.5 billion deficit and we have many serious decisions to make.
One is that we do not have the money to care for any who are not here
legally. It has to stop.
The border can be secured. We have the technology we have the ability to
stop this invasion. We must know who is coming and they must come in an
organized manner legally so that we can assimilate them into our population
and protect the sovereignty of our country. We are a nation of laws. We have
a responsibility to protect our citizens and to protect the integrity of our
country and the government which we live under.

I would give amnesty today to many, but here is the problem, we dare not do
this until the Border is secure. It will do no good to forgive them because
thousands will come behind them and we will be over run to the point that
there will no longer be the United States of America but a North American
Union of open borders. I ask you what form of government will we live under?
How long will it be before we will be just like Mexico, Canada or any of the
other Central American or South American countries? We have already lost our
language, everything must be printed in Spanish also. We have already lost
our history it is no longer taught in our schools. And we have lost our
borders.

The leftist media has distorted what SB 1070 will do. It is not going to set
up a Nazi Germany. Are you kidding. The ACLU and the leftist courts will do
everything to protect those who are here illegally, but it was an effort to
try and stop illegal's from setting up businesses, and employment, and
receiving state services and give the ability to local law enforcement when
there is probable cause like a traffic stop to determine if they are here
legally. Federal law is very clear if you are here on a visa you must have
your papers on you at all times. That is the law. In Arizona all you need to
show you are a legal citizen is a driver license, MVD identification card,
Native American Card, or a Military ID. This is what you need to vote, get a
hunting license, etc.. So nothing new has been added to this law. No one is
going to be stopped walking down the street etc... The Socialist who are in
power in DC are angry because we dare try and do something and that
something the Socialist wants us to do is just let them come. They want the
"Transformation" to continue.

Maybe it is too late to save America. Maybe we are not worthy of freedom
anymore. But as an elected official I must try to do what I can to protect
our Constitutional Republic. Living in America is not a right just because
you can walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility and it
comes by respecting and upholding the Constitution the law of our land which
says what you must do to be a citizen of this country. Freedom is not free.

Regarding that grade-averaging email, snopes.com gives it a status of "legend."
http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp
Normally a status is given as "true" or "false" or a mix. I think "legend" means "undetermined."

The story has been circulating in one form or another for years.

"While we can't as yet pin down the origin of the grade averaging piece, anecdotal evidence indicates it's at least fifteen years older than its 2009 outbreak would tend to indicate, in that one of our readers says he heard it at bible college in 1994 from a professor teaching world civics."

While the "legend" may be just that, just look at the difference between East and West Germany during the time of the wall. Which side do you want to be on?

The alleged Arizona senator can't formulate a coherent sentence. That says something to me, either about the validity of the email or the intelligence of the Arizona senate, but I'm not sure which.

Regarding the grade averaging piece, the point that gets overlooked is the grade is not the reward. The knowledge is. So, if all anyone cares about is the grade, they are already confused.

While the "legend" may be just that, just look at the difference between East and West Germany during the time of the wall. Which side do you want to be on?

antiqueone, if you're going to let me draw my own conclusions then:
Liberals love social programs, so they would choose West Germany.
Conservatives love a police state, so they would choose East Germany.

The email i forwarded was to make some think, not give STXER a reason to smoke crack!

I live in AZ right now moving to STT in July. This law is a continuation of exsisting federal law that isnt enforced. I have a friend who is a nurse and one who is a doctor and their hospitals are losing money because of the illegals. This is not a racial profiling thing. Before if police pulled someone over with no id they let them go with a ticket. Which they would not show up for or pay. Now at least they will be jailed for breaking our laws. If you have entered this country illegally you are a lawbreaker. Whether you want a better life or not you broke the law. About 5 years ago 6 mexicans died crossing the desert to AZ. Their relatives tried to sue AZ for not having watering stations for people trying to enter the country unlawfully. Its crazy and I look forward to moving.

From an AZ senator who voted foe this bill!

...The Socialist who are in power in DC are angry because we dare try and do something and that something the Socialist wants us to do is just let them come. They want the "Transformation" to continue...

the true motivation behind this bill is apparent in this sentence (such as it is).

this country was "transformed" centuries ago, and it was not good for anyone but the "transformers".

Wow. I must admit, I'm perplexed by all the confusion and teeth gnashing about this law. First, it's interesting to me that a state had to pass a law effectively making it a crime to be doing something that's against the law. Sounds redundant, no? It's akin to a state passing a law that says it's now a crime to be a bank robber or a rapist--when that's already against the law. Why do people seem to miss the fact that "illegal" in front of immigrant is not a simple adjective such as "happy" or "determined," but rather, actually means that that person has broken the law and should be subject to the punishment called for by that law?

People who bring in this whole "they don't like having brown-skinned people around" are just trying to confuse the argument and throw out a red herring. The issue is not about brown skin, pink skin, people with three heads or anything of the sort. It's a legal issue, trying to deal with a situation that has gotten out of control because no one has been able to actually enforce a law that is on the books. Why can't we discuss it on those terms? If you're in the country illegally, you should be sent back, period. Just as if you committed any other crime, and regardless of whether you're an illegal from Mexico, Ireland, Russia or Planet Zork. If not, why do we have a distinction of "illegal" versus "legal" immigrants to begin with?

Bernie

i don't agree with anyone stopping people to ask for their papers unless everyone gets stopped and asked for their papers. i don't think that will be the case with the arizona law.

lean on your representatives for immigration reform, lean on the companies that benefit from that labor to affect the demand for this invisible workforce.

i think this law will lean hardest on legal residents of arizona who happen to look a certain way.

Everyone is already required to provide proof of identity when asked by a cop. Cops have the discretion to choose the folks from whom they want to see ID, and that discretion remains. What AZ is doing is eliminating the discretion cops have had in terms of what they accept as ID. Rather than choosing to accept a recited DL or SS number from some folks, and choosing to escort other folks to collect ID from home, hotel, car, wherever, AZ is requiring everyone to carry ID. A DL, or ID issued by the DMV, is lightweight plastic the size of a credit card, so I don't think it's a tremendous burden to require individuals to carry such a card. The new law makes the same demand of everyone, and the demand is fair, so I think the new law is reasonable.

Everyone is already required to provide proof of identity when asked by a cop. Cops have the discretion to choose the folks from whom they want to see ID, and that discretion remains. What AZ is doing is eliminating the discretion cops have had in terms of what they accept as ID. Rather than choosing to accept a recited DL or SS number from some folks, and choosing to escort other folks to collect ID from home, hotel, car, wherever, AZ is requiring everyone to carry ID. A DL, or ID issued by the DMV, is lightweight plastic the size of a credit card, so I don't think it's a tremendous burden to require individuals to carry such a card. The new law makes the same demand of everyone, and the demand is fair, so I think the new law is reasonable.

I agree!

Too many burdens have been placed in Arizona, & the US.
States are mandated to balance their budgets, the feds cab print more $!

Or maybe the immigrants will boycott Caucasian business there(this happened in Texas, here's the link:

The Boycott is a success!

snopes.com says that the Victoria Texas boycott is bunk

SHH, I'm trying to get interesting responses)