Ariona Law

Jennn, even if every immigrant followed the rules and waited for a visa, the demand for visas is far greater than the supply, due to visa quotas. Hence, the border-jumping.

I put zero trust in anything wikipedia has to say, no fact checks and anyone can contribute. Get the info from the real source.

It doesn't mean it's wrong. Tell me which of my excerpts you don't trust, and I'll find another source for you.

People have been stating that there is broad support for the Arizona law, so I looked it up.

From the Pew Research Center:

The whole story is at http://people-press.org/report/613/arizona-immigration-law, with breakdowns by party affiliation, and age. There's also a question about Obama’s overall job approval, and his handling of immigration policy (and it ain't good).

STXBob,

You are right on the money. However, I'd like to add, I have relatives here from U.K. and they still have their accent. Look at the actress Rosie Perez, raised in New York and still has her Puerto Rican accent. In other words, people can have an accent for years, whether it is a southern, east coast, west coast.

Your quote from wikipedia is only talking about the lottery. Would you not get a job and just play the lottery in your state for a chance at an income? NO of coarse not. And trying to get a green card by way of lottery is just a dumb. Your hence border jumping comment is just an opinion. Border jumping is illegal, IMO they should do criminal time for it not just get sent back to come back the next day or next week. That would do much more good then building fences. Which I'm sure you find just as offensive as I found your comment.

I don't have a problem with your Wikipedia quote but in general find that site to be a horrible site for information. It is always slanted by the particular writer or writers of the piece. Just check out the US website link I gave you and you can find all the real information, OR the Immigration center on stx is right next to Kmart at sunny isle, next to China Jade, go down and talk to them,

Beside that you are just nick picking and avoiding what this thread is about. I'm not going to spend anymore time discussing Wikipedia, other then I think it's crap or at best a starting off point. People that come into our country illegally have NO RIGHT to be here. That is what this Arizona law is about. They are criminals. I don't see how anyone can defend them being in the country. Do it legally. This is what every country in the World demands.

Frankly I just think you believe there is nothing wrong with illegal aliens and are just arguing for argument's sake. So there's not really much point in us arguing about it. I've seen what the border towns in texas were and what they have become. Half of my family has lived there for 6 generations. Something drastic needs to be done, so my family applauds what Arizona is doing, even my family on the Mexican side.

Lizard,

You keep trying to say that it isn't a tax, and investor greed. Some investors got wiped out, the account managers made million dollar + commissions, as well as their firms. These people have gotten some of the biggest commissions ever. To further explain this, since you are so intent on saying it was the investors, even as investors have been wiped out, and taxpayers bailed out these firms, they continue to draw million dollar + salaries. Investors who have invested in Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae have taken a hit - homeowners have lost their homes, yet, the executives are still drawing salaries, so, if you will show me where the investor made a profit. Another example, Bernie Madoff, sent bogus statements to investors, it was his company that made off like bandits, in fact, no one has said much about his huge estate and land in Tobago. By the way, the executives of Goldman Sachs have bought up huge estates and land in Brazil. The SEC had looked the other way or refused to investigate these investment firms. I also must not on how sometimes these brokers, or account managers, financial services rep or whatever name YOU want to call them, some have been accused of putting people in investments they didn't ask for (without permission) or putting them in risky investments. In other words, churning.

Back to commissions, notice when you go to a car dealership, and not one, but many car salesmen run towards you. Yeah, it's a you know what when your salary is based on commission. With commissions, you only get a percentage of the amount with the rest going back to the company. In this business, as with other commission jobs, there are quotas, if you don't bring in a certain amount of money (sales) to the company, you are fired.

As far as social security, there are people who have never worked who receives it, example, there are drug users that have spent most of their lives behind bars some are entitled to social security, they don't all get 'general relief.' There are also some that haven't spent most of their lives behind bars and still get it, and have never worked, this is considered a disability.

I agree with you on one part, some people get back more or less depending on how much they put in. There's another part there, a child can draw from his or her parent's account, as well as a widow.

Okay, I have read that there are immigrants from Latin America in places as far as Egypt, Italy, throughout Africa, to Thailand, and some were suspected drug dealers, some were workers, either dancing or maids, to a host of other jobs. Also what caught my eye, was when I read something a while back, a immigrant from Mexico said that Italians were actually Latinos. Something you guys probably missed, I've read that Canada is now blaming the U.S. for the illegal immigrants coming to Canada asking for asylum. Now, I seem to remember, a few years ago, Canada offered the illegal immigrants from here to come there because they would treat them better than Americans did - it showed the housing they provided to the immigrants. It was a dorm-like setting. But, they bragged that they would be treated more humanely.

Sub Prime mortgage people lost there homes that they should never been allowed to close on. Bernie Madoff investors were greedy everybody else was making 5% and the Madoff people were making 20%. If you think the series 7 order takers caused this recession go back to school. Oh and the companies you have mentioned are STOCK companies you like cit bank etc. Stop trying to dazzle everybody with historic BS.

Jennn: I didn't say that border-jumping was OK. I said that people do it because there aren't enough visas available. I don't have a problem with the Arizona law, since they amended it to remove profiling and to not allow it as a primary reason for stopping somebody.

To throw a monkey-wrench in this illegal immigration debate, did you guys know that South Asia (this includes India), Middle East, and parts of Africa, the left hand is strictly reserved for sanitary reasons, and that it is usually required to used the right hand for eating?

Lizard,

This will be the last response to you regarding this subject. I have invited you to send me a PM, you are getting off the subject, a subject most people probably don't care to get involved in, or don't understand most of the dynamics of all of this, this is about the Arizona Law. It kinda got off the subject, but it was related to employers hiring the illegal immigrants.

However, I will end this by saying something everyone will understand.

After the taxpayers bailed out these corporations, they continued to pay million dollar + salaries and bonuses saying that they didn't want to lose TALENT. It was revealed on nationwide television how the executives were booked at luxury hotels for purposes known as meetings and conferences - Las Vegas mayor blasted Pres. Obama for criticizing these firms for a scheduled convention, conference or whatever phrase they used to go to Las Vegas, because he (mayor) was angry that Vegas would lose the money it would have brought to his state. The public was angry when they showed how these financial brains was living it up at the Ritz Carlton in Laguna Beach. Not any mention of the investors, but talent.

While there is a limit on visas it is in the hundreds of thousands, and that is just say for the work visas (140,000), there is also the family visas(266,000), refugee visas, and there are about 20 other options etc... How many people a year do you really want to become permanent citizens each year? This does not even include the naturalization process or all of the temporary visas, long as you do not let a temporary visa lapse and you still have a go reason to be here you can keep renewing them. I say there are enough visa's.

OK, I've gotta stop, I'm ruining my funday, and it is lost finale night, so have fun arguing without me tonight.

From FOX News, April 30TH, 2010

In 2004, the year when the data was most recently available, 12.4 percent of California prisoners were illegal immigrants, as compared with an estimated 6.9 percent of the state population. In Arizona, 11.1 percent of the prison population was undocumented, compared with 7 percent of the overall state population. In Texas, the percentage was also slightly higher in the prisons than it was statewide.

A Government Accountability Office study from 2005 also found that most illegal immigrant arrests were happening in California, Texas and Arizona. The study sampled a prison population of more than 55,000 illegal immigrants, and found that 80 percent of all the arrests were in those three states.

Just to explain something here, I'm by no means an expert on anything, nor do I KNOW IT ALL. But, I also worked in the mortgage industry for a short time. Lizard is saying it is the investors greed. How about pointing the finger at the loan officer. Sure, you will get a flyer saying these are good loans, but, you will never see the actual rate sheet. Rate sheets are given to the loan officer that tell him how much he could make writing certain loans, meaning, let's say you have a credit score below 640, there are different ways to write this loan, is it a fixed rate, adjustable rate, how many points are you going to charge the client, if they want to lock in a certain interest rate for so many days there are points charged also. Anyone who had or have a loan can tell you, the place that sold you the loan will sometimes sell that loan. Sometimes these loan officers put people in bad loans that could have qualified for a better loan. To blame the investors, again, look at the loan officer as well as the buyer. It was pressure from loan officers that they could get you financed no matter what, especially with the interest only loans, and that adjustables were good. Well with adjustables, the public didn't know to ask the loan officer about caps as well as margin, as well as what index the rate was tied to like LIBOR (London Inter-bank Offered Rate), MTA, treasuries, COFI - all the public knew was that the loan officer told them, oh, just get this loan now and we'll get you refinanced before this or that kicks in. The loan officer didn't really need any experience, but the loan processor and the underwriter had to catch whatever the loan officer missed - a loan officer must be certified/licensed to write FHA and VA loans.

Daniel Sadek of Quick Loan funding - he owned this company, I can't remember if he was from Iraq or Iran, but this guy had only a elementary school education and made millions, and this was a private firm, no shareholders. But when companies sell loans to other companies, they make money. Much like say for instance, you have a bill go into collections, this bill may be sold to more than one collection agency.

Also, it was the buyers the got into the NINA (No Income No Assets) , SISA (Stated Income Stated Asset) loans, they even got the 'No Income No Job No Asset loans, so not only was the commissioned-payed loan officer part of the blame, because the saying of the day was "why waste so much money paying rent when you can own," but you also had buyers that jumped up to buy something they knew deep down inside they couldn't afford, the 'worry about it later' attitude. So with mortgages being sold in bundles, and sold so-many times, yes, sometimes the new company could not find the original loan docs.

A. Davis,

Funny you mentioned you hope the corporations hear this cry. Since GOP doesn't believe in regulating businesses, the corporations are putting their money on GOP because Obama is putting regulations on the banks, and other businesses. GOP believes that the free markets should regulate themselves. Even Rand Paul says that government have no business telling private businesses how to run their businesses. This is what got us into this mess, LOL.

This country is in a free fall, because as I have been saying all along, I blame the corporations. I kept saying that because, little do people know, we are in fact on track to be a country like Mexico. Business own almost all of the GDP, and a small government. This is what free markets and capitalism have brought us. Now that the corporations have the upper hand, meaning our government is at the mercy of these big corporations they are dictating what they will or won't do. And now that they are multinational corporations, they can leave the U.S. anytime they want, like GM, they took taxpayer dollars and continued on as usual with their Mexico and China plants, their plants in Canada faired better than ours. They said that our medical system costs them too much money, and they don't want to pay for Americans healthcare. Then you have the healthcare industry fighting back and using slick ways to get the people out to protest against a national healthcare system. It is a no-win situation for the Americans that don't understand the entire issue. The businesses are arguing that they don't want to pay the high wages and also pay for medical benefits and retirement benefits. The GOP argues that the government shouldn't have to pay social security, even though people are paying taxes for social security, and then you have the financial and investment industry that have wiped people out of their retirement savings. To top it off, a lot of scam artists are out there now preying on people that are looking for safe investments.

I Think you should read what you post. You copy some some very bad information. Oh the mortgage originator does not have to be certified by the Fed to take a loan application, he/she might have to be licensed in the state their doing business. I"M glad we are not talking about Brain surgery for fear you did a stint at that as well.

Terry, I found the article you referenced: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/border-states-dealing-illegal-immigrant-crime-data-suggests/

Some of the crimes are immigration-related, and some are violent crimes. Here are some excerpts which attempt to balance the sentiment of the article, along with what you quoted. Participants of this debate may want to read the entire article.

"While the correlation between illegal immigrants and crime is almost impossible to quantify precisely, the available numbers indicate that Arizona -- as well as California and Texas -- are dealing with increased crime as a result of high illegal immigrant populations and activity.

Part of this is because some of those immigrants are being arrested based on immigration-related charges. A Pew Hispanic Center report last year said "increased enforcement" of immigration laws accounts for part of the trend.

But there are other crimes, many of which are drug-related. Furthermore, illegal immigrants and smuggling organizations have been linked to some specific violent crimes in Arizona. Local officials frequently cite the rash of kidnappings in their state in defending the new law. The Department of Justice's latest National Drug Threat Assessment says there were 267 kidnappings in Phoenix last year and 299 in 2008. The report said the victims usually have a connection to immigrant smuggling groups or drug traffickers.

The report also showed that assaults against U.S. law enforcement on the southwestern border are on the rise. The report found that the number of attacks on Border Patrol agents increased 46 percent to 1,097 incidents in fiscal 2008. The report said the assaults were mostly related to immigrant smuggling."

And

"A Government Accountability Office study from 2005 also found that most illegal immigrant arrests were happening in California, Texas and Arizona. The study sampled a prison population of more than 55,000 illegal immigrants, and found that 80 percent of all the arrests were in those three states.

But overall, it's hard to say that illegal immigrants have triggered a crime explosion in any of these states, though the recent killing of Arizona rancher Robert Krentz by a suspected illegal immigrant has served as a rallying cry for advocates of tougher enforcement.

FBI statistics show California and Texas had a violent crime average slightly higher than the national average 2008, while Arizona's average was slightly lower.

Jessica Vaughan, a co-author of the Center for Immigration Studies report and policy director at the think tank, said the bottom line is that connections between illegal immigrants and crime are hard to draw."

The reason that I questioned a strong link between illegal immigrants and violent crimes is that I have found illegals in the northeast US to be of generally good character (aside from being there illegally), and very reluctant to do anything that would jeopardize their presence in the US, such as committing violent crimes, or any crimes. One was distressed that his (US citizen) boss was shoplifting at Home Depot in his presence, for fear that the boss would get caught, and he (the illegal) would be deported. Others rode bicycles rather than risk getting pulled over for being unlicensed drivers. But in the southwest US, maybe it’s different.

I think the jury is still out on a strong link between illegal immigrants and (non-immigration-related) crime.

STXBob,

You are right on the money again. I said there is crime here in California. But, I also listed some links near the beginning of this thread to show that some of the illegal immigrants are in corporate sponsored housing, and some are not allowed to leave the premises - the link for the Indian slashs wrists article, said that they lived in trailers in New Orleans and these trailers were at the work site.

However, there was a case, I don't remember the listing that there was an illegal immigrant from Latin America that had escaped from prison and was working here in the U.S. and after he was convicted of a crime here (don't remember if it was a murder here) that it was discovered he escaped from prison serving a murder sentence.

STXBob and Terry,

did you see the articles that says The Taliban Earn Money for Each Nato Soldier They Kill, just google that and you will find lots of articles on this. The article says that this money comes from protection rackets up to donors in Gulf States channeling money through Dubai, and that they earn up to $200,000 Pakistan Rupees - again, Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal is the 2nd largest shareholder in Fox News/News Corp.

while we're on the subject of immigration, has anyone been to Venezuela? I'm thinking about taking a trip there, and if I like it, will see if I can move there.

The reason that I questioned a strong link between illegal immigrants and violent crimes is that I have found illegals in the northeast US to be of generally good character (aside from being there illegally), and very reluctant to do anything that would jeopardize their presence in the US, such as committing violent crimes, or any crimes. One was distressed that his (US citizen) boss was shoplifting at Home Depot in his presence, for fear that the boss would get caught, and he (the illegal) would be deported. Others rode bicycles rather than risk getting pulled over for being unlicensed drivers. But in the southwest US, maybe it’s different.

I think the jury is still out on a strong link between illegal immigrants and (non-immigration-related) crime.

It's more than "out" ...it's non-existent.

"Over all — combining federal and state prisons — 6.4 percent of the nation’s prisoners were noncitizens in 2005. This is down from 6.8 percent in 2000.

By comparison, 6.9 percent of the total United States population were noncitizens in 2003, according to the Census Bureau."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonside.html

The article also quotes an economist's research into "why" immigrants might commit fewer non-immigration related crimes (ie, other than being an illegal which is classified as a crime).

"For one thing, the consequences of being arrested can be enormous for illegal immigrants, which is an obvious deterrent to crime. For another, immigrants, as a group, aren’t typical of the population. The fact that they have picked up and moved to another country suggests that they have more ambition, and perhaps even more skill, than the average person. This could help explain why the United States, a nation of immigrants, is such an economic powerhouse."

Neil,

That's part of the problem, immigrants are being blamed for taking jobs, gangs, smuggling, etc. Most are just scapegoats. I stand by my earlier statement, a criminal is a criminal, no matter what racial/ethnic group they belong to. I mentioned how an American citizen, in Arizona, Marcia Powell, died from what the papers say as being in 107+ degree heat for about 4 hours, yet, immigrants work outdoors in this heat.

Anjell....you obviously have ALOT to say but you make obvious points...Yes immigrants work in 107 degree temps and so do Other Legal americans like roofers,lawn care blacktop etccc soooooo what the hell is your point other than to try and drum sympathy for an ILLEGAL .Please ...take a breath and a mint ...cause your mouthwash aint workin(td)

Poorthang,

Gee, you're so funny! Seriously, no joke, this one I had to laugh at. Not out of sarcasim, but this was really funny.

Now for the serious side, I am not pro-immigrant by any means. You are right on the money when you say Americans will work in the heat for the jobs you have mentioned. But, what about the fields, picking fruits and vegetables? In this, I have suggested long ago that these employers hire prisoners, or parolees, why, because at least they will know who the parolees are. A parolee can be violated for any reason. A job is a job, is a job, so I think this would have been perfect for both sides. The employer, if hired prisoners wouldn't have to worry about paying the prisoner immigrant wages because they make less than $1.00 an hour anyway, and if they don't work out they can be fired, there are no possible lawsuits. A parolee, if they want to get a new start, this is one way, and if they do anything wrong, the employer can always notifiy parole, problem solved with no possible lawsuits, at least it would be hard.

Mexico Places Threatening Ads in Arizona Newspaper!!!!

The Sonora Tourism office placed an ad in the Arizona Republic Newspaper on Friday and Saturday. Pictures of a Mexican Soldier looking through binoculars with the words "we are looking for Americans from Arizona" then another one as if saying Americans will miss partying in Mexico. All in all, it looks like it is stalking.

This is the article that shows both photos of the ads, Joe Arpaio Calls for Boycott of Mexico Following "Threatening" Ad http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/05/joe_arpaio_calls_for_boycott_o.php

BTW, I did not see any of this on any news in California, not the local or cable.

Neil,

That's part of the problem, immigrants are being blamed for taking jobs, gangs, smuggling, etc. Most are just scapegoats. I stand by my earlier statement, a criminal is a criminal, no matter what racial/ethnic group they belong to. I mentioned how an American citizen, in Arizona, Marcia Powell, died from what the papers say as being in 107+ degree heat for about 4 hours, yet, immigrants work outdoors in this heat.

As a student of history, I can confirm that INDEED.... "immigrants" throughout history get scapegoated for lots of things. Xenophobia is alive and well (even on the islands). That said, I don't believe in open borders.

re: the heat
Most Mexicans I know (from having worked in the poor "colonias" along the border) are smart enough not to work in the midday heat. Most are hardworking, family oriented, and just want to provide for their families.